Logging has been continued from ‚€œChat ‚€œSotSW063005‚€-2005.06.html‚€ at 7/1/2005 12:00:01 AM.
MilesMk1 (12:00:00 AM): #Now we know where NOT to be at Sundown.#
Umbrafer (12:00:16 AM): (I'll point out that you needed the stuff to stay undiscovered until Midnight)
CirclMastr (12:00:17 AM): #I don't even want to be here right NOW anymore.#
Umbrafer (12:00:25 AM): (It just needed to be in place by Sundown)
Umbrafer (12:00:47 AM): (They could start any time between, if the rest of your theories are correct)
MilesMk1 (12:00:58 AM): (Hmm... Really? Ok, that's a bit better... But I don't think we'll trust then when explosives are involved, just the same. ;))
Thematrian1 (12:01:02 AM): (Ah, that's true, I had forgotten)
Thematrian1 (12:01:10 AM): (Still, let's be far away anyhow)
MilesMk1 (12:01:22 AM): #So, are you walking out, or do you just not want to be here?#
CirclMastr (12:02:00 AM): #I'm trying to ignore the voice in my head screaming "It's a setup!", but I still don't want to sit on a huge pile of plastic explosives.#
MilesMk1 (12:02:03 AM): *gets out, swiping a detonator on the way out to check out later and identify make, model and technical specs like range*
Thematrian1 (12:02:05 AM): #Unless you feel like keeping a momento, Glitch, I think it's time to withdraw. And come up with a new plan. Again#
MilesMk1 (12:02:38 AM): (Unless there were so few of them it'd be immediately obvious I stole one.)
Umbrafer (12:02:57 AM): (There aren't a whole lot, but not so few that most people would notice without counting)
Umbrafer (12:03:08 AM): One advantage you have from all this: you've now got a pretty good idea of where the tunnel is between the depression and here.
Umbrafer (12:03:33 AM): Providing the schematic, which shows this as a straight run, is accurate.
MilesMk1 (12:03:47 AM): True... But if that lets us get in somehow, why would anyone blow it up?
CirclMastr (12:03:59 AM): Distraction?
MilesMk1 (12:04:08 AM): Could be.
CirclMastr (12:04:11 AM): Radio detonate, watch guards run into a trap
Thematrian1 (12:04:28 AM): If they wanted to kill the guards, they'd just kill them...
CirclMastr (12:04:43 AM): That would give away their position, though.
MilesMk1 (12:05:03 AM): Hey... Judging by how much explosives I saw, could setting them all off in the designated spot potentially affect the plant? Shockwave through the tunnel, and so on? I'm guessing no, but...
MilesMk1 (12:05:47 AM): Maybe they figure they can blast their way into the tunnel undetected if we help them bypass the monitoring station?
Umbrafer (12:05:49 AM): Probably not, not unless there are some seriously important pipes way too close to the blasting point. There are clearly more explosives than are indicated from the blasting markers, though.
Umbrafer (12:06:44 AM): And, perhaps more tellingly, more detonator.s
MilesMk1 (12:06:45 AM): Another question... Would the amount of explosives indicated simply be felt/heard by anyone in the area, or would you need tremor monitors to pick it up as anything meaningful?
Umbrafer (12:06:47 AM): *s
Umbrafer (12:07:05 AM): Anyone immediately below, it would be obvious to (of course)
Thematrian1 (12:07:23 AM): #Only alternative: the corp set the explosives itself for some undisclosed reason. The well thing argues against it, but dumbass runners don't tend to handle explosives safely, so why the markings?#
MilesMk1 (12:07:29 AM): Right. I meant someone at the station or the plant - or even a few hundred feet away.
Umbrafer (12:07:37 AM): If expertly set up, you think it could be not much less subtle as the blasted concrete falling.
Umbrafer (12:07:45 AM): *than
MilesMk1 (12:08:08 AM): Sounds pretty subtle, then...
MilesMk1 (12:08:55 AM): #I've been thinking some more about this, and if properly set, this thing going off would probably go unnoticed... Unless someone was monitoring for it with electronic equipment.#
MilesMk1 (12:09:18 AM): #Maybe that's why they want us to do our thing...#
Thematrian1 (12:09:21 AM): #You think that's the change? Twisty...#
MilesMk1 (12:10:29 AM): #The charge itself shouldn't be much more obvious than the resulting collapse and chunks of concrete - not nearly enough for someone to feel the floor move at the plant...#
MilesMk1 (12:10:59 AM): #I was going to take one of the detonators... Perhaps it'd be better if I left it behind...#
Thematrian1 (12:11:23 AM): #That seems wiser. We're staying away from this area now anyway; their inferior demolitions are no concern of ours#
MilesMk1 (12:12:24 AM): #I figured studying it could tell me stuff like how close the person setting it off would have to be to the charges, but it's probably pointless, and best not to mess with it...# *replaces the detonator, then really gets out*
MilesMk1 (12:12:36 AM): And now I have to run too... Goodnight, guys.
Umbrafer (12:12:40 AM): *Splish splash splish*
Thematrian1 (12:12:41 AM): Sleep well
Umbrafer (12:12:45 AM): G'night, sleep well. Tuesday?
MilesMk1 (12:12:51 AM): Yep.
Umbrafer (12:12:53 AM): When we hopefully continue our trend of Not Dying?
MilesMk1 (12:12:58 AM): Hopefully.
Thematrian1 (12:13:01 AM): Yeah, well, we'll see
Thematrian1 (12:13:06 AM): exciting times ahead
Umbrafer (12:13:12 AM): Indeed.
Thematrian1 (12:13:13 AM): and Blake finally gets to drive
MilesMk1 (12:13:14 AM): So, do you like Gem as a character?
Umbrafer (12:13:25 AM): Hehehe
Thematrian1 (12:13:36 AM): Yeah. I misbuilt her somewhat, but yeah. Also, heh.
MilesMk1 (12:13:59 AM): All right. *waves*
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Thematrian1 (12:14:30 AM): Hm, so was that an inquiry or a veiled threat?
Umbrafer (12:14:37 AM): I'm actually not sure
Umbrafer (12:14:47 AM): Probably not serious if the latter.
Thematrian1 (12:14:54 AM): well indeed
Umbrafer (12:17:03 AM): Out of interest, what did you misbuild?
Thematrian1 (12:17:25 AM): the eyes
Thematrian1 (12:17:35 AM): cameras are out, vision enhancement is in
Umbrafer (12:17:41 AM): *Nods*
Thematrian1 (12:17:58 AM): some small things that I didn't buy at character creation but should have; that's the only unfixible one
Thematrian1 (12:18:13 AM): buying stuff, Gem is pretty good at
Umbrafer (12:18:23 AM): Not really--if you get the cred, you can swap them and sell off the cams.
Thematrian1 (12:18:53 AM): can I now? I thought I read something about needing to pay essence each time?
Thematrian1 (12:19:04 AM): like a sam's wired reflexes leave an essence hole if they're taken out?
Umbrafer (12:19:14 AM): They do leave an essence hole
Umbrafer (12:19:22 AM): By straight SR3, new 'ware goes into that hole first
Thematrian1 (12:19:27 AM): ah, but that hole can be filled with more cyber...ah
Thematrian1 (12:19:35 AM): I just can't get my essence back is all. Got it
Umbrafer (12:19:53 AM): In the expanded surgery rules (which I don't use, and probably won't until they get SR3Red), it changes that to a surgery option
Umbrafer (12:20:20 AM): (That is to say, sometimes you put the 'ware in an Essence hole, sometimes it just eats new Essence, depends on your doctor's rolls)
Thematrian1 (12:20:58 AM): Let me take this time to mention that I think the proper place for the surgery rules in SR3R is 'behind the woodshed, being dealt with'
Umbrafer (12:21:13 AM): That's probably going to be the idea.
Umbrafer (12:21:23 AM): Incidentally, do you have any thoughts on SR3RR3R?
Thematrian1 (12:21:34 AM): I'd argue against them, but everything I don't like is nicely summarized in your explanation of them
Umbrafer (12:22:16 AM): Yeah. They're realistic to some degree, but not in a way that makes for good gameplay.
Umbrafer (12:22:36 AM): Nothing like having a character die because your doc rolled wrong upgrading your 'ware.
Thematrian1 (12:22:46 AM): Entirely realistic, mind you
Thematrian1 (12:22:56 AM): but past a certain point there's nothing you can do about it
Umbrafer (12:23:15 AM): Reminds me of some games being talked about a few weeks ago where you could apparently die during character generation.
Thematrian1 (12:23:23 AM): Traveler, original
Thematrian1 (12:23:26 AM): such a great game
Thematrian1 (12:23:28 AM): but
Umbrafer (12:23:40 AM): That was one. Human Occupied Landfill was another, IIRC.
Umbrafer (12:23:58 AM): Fringeworthy might be a third, but no one knows
Umbrafer (12:24:08 AM): Since they never actually tell you what happens when you roll a stat of 0
Thematrian1 (12:24:15 AM): ooh
Umbrafer (12:24:19 AM): (Have I told you about that?)
Thematrian1 (12:24:25 AM): (Nope)
Umbrafer (12:24:43 AM): Stats are all 4d6-4
Umbrafer (12:24:47 AM): All tables of what stats mean start at 1
Thematrian1 (12:24:57 AM): wuh oh
Umbrafer (12:25:24 AM): There's a gearlist more extensive than Shadowrun's complete with prices, but most of the action occurs in alternate dimensions where commerce is likely to be difficult and the GM is told to assume that the players have whatever they
Umbrafer (12:25:28 AM): request at chargen
Umbrafer (12:25:47 AM): (Correction: more extensive than SR3's. With the supplements it tips the other way.)
Thematrian1 (12:25:51 AM): fascinating. I take it this game is out of print?
Umbrafer (12:26:05 AM): Actually, not as of a few years back
Umbrafer (12:26:15 AM): Well
Umbrafer (12:26:18 AM): It probably is
Umbrafer (12:26:34 AM): You can still buy it new from the company, but that's more likely a spare warehouse full of the stuff than active print runs
Thematrian1 (12:26:46 AM): right
Umbrafer (12:26:55 AM): (Or at least you still could two or three years ago, when I got my copy)
Thematrian1 (12:26:57 AM): ok, is available for purchase. And it is. Trippy
Umbrafer (12:27:10 AM): They've got something like twenty attributes
Umbrafer (12:27:29 AM): Including such gems as Crystal Use, Ability to Deal with Aliens, and Standing
Thematrian1 (12:27:56 AM): Probably best to max out Standing
Umbrafer (12:28:01 AM): There are four separate attributes for what SR3 defines as "Quickness"
Umbrafer (12:28:22 AM): Accuracy, dexterity, quickness, and agility, IIRC
Umbrafer (12:29:08 AM): I really do need to run a game of it sometime.
Umbrafer (12:29:22 AM): Maybe to break up an SR3R Playtesting Marathon
Thematrian1 (12:29:58 AM): haha
Umbrafer (12:30:37 AM): "Ok people, this is what not to do. If you see anything like this in SR3R, you tell me right now."
CirclMastr (12:30:45 AM): I'll start with a hydrogen bomb chaingun.
Umbrafer (12:31:21 AM): Sure. Now the rest of the players need to spend the game making sure you don't use it.
Umbrafer (12:31:41 AM): (Strictly speaking that's a no-go, as it's beyond the tech level of the Earth homeworld)
CirclMastr (12:31:43 AM): I'll also start with a radio control for it. And deadman switch.
Thematrian1 (12:32:13 AM): (Not all that far beyond, if you're willing to build it large enough)
CirclMastr (12:32:20 AM): Okay, just ONE hydrogen bomb, then...
Thematrian1 (12:32:35 AM): (If you're willing to trade down to fission, we could probably build it today)
Thematrian1 (12:32:42 AM): (We just wouldn't because, come on)
Umbrafer (12:33:49 AM): (Yeah, that'd be worse politics than extolling abroad the value of Baby as a herd animal that makes good eating.)
Thematrian1 (12:34:15 AM): (It does a body good.)
Umbrafer (12:34:35 AM): (A little high in fat for me, personally, but baby-fed cows‚€¦ yum.)
CirclMastr (12:34:39 AM): The Other Other White Mea
CirclMastr (12:34:40 AM): *Meat
Umbrafer (12:36:36 AM): (Also, fiber-optic cable is expensive.)
Thematrian1 (12:36:52 AM): (Yeah. What do you need it for?)
Umbrafer (12:37:47 AM): (Nothing in particular, thankfully, but I was looking it up since I found a place that has pretty good deals on bulk ethernet cable (though nothing as good as that awesome deal I got on some plenum-rated solid-core stuff. If you've
Umbrafer (12:37:54 AM): got any buildings you need wired, let me know.)
Umbrafer (12:38:08 AM): (Mmm, airspaces)
Thematrian1 (12:39:05 AM): (Anyway: I want to dispose of signature and maneuver, and mutilate Sensor beyond recognition. Body changes to a 15 point scale rather than a 5 point scale, armor caps hard at body and imposes stiffer Handling penalties...)
Thematrian1 (12:39:14 AM): (And no, all my buildings are adequately wired right now)
Umbrafer (12:39:27 AM): (5 point scale?)
Umbrafer (12:39:53 AM): (Also, what would you replace Signature with/how would you change Sensor?)
Thematrian1 (12:40:01 AM): (15:5, anyway. How big can you get before you become Naval?)
Umbrafer (12:40:12 AM): (Body 10)
Thematrian1 (12:40:51 AM): (Hm. Maybe 30 is high. 20 would still be high. Not that we care, we get machines to do our work)
CirclMastr has left the chat room.

Umbrafer (12:41:15 AM): ?
Thematrian1 (12:41:39 AM): (Rolling 30 dice is more of a trial when you have to roll, reroll, and count each die in meatspace)
Umbrafer (12:42:22 AM): (This is very true)
Thematrian1 (12:42:40 AM): (I'd replace signature with the same set of rules that governs vision for people. This would be part of a fairly drastic overhaul of How Perception Works in SR)
Umbrafer (12:42:44 AM): (I had a decker on an Orange-8 rack up a Scout-9 and Probe-6)
Thematrian1 (12:43:02 AM): (And in real life. Glee)
Umbrafer (12:43:16 AM): (Let me tell you, 23 dice, even of the smaller size you get in the Chessex bricks, isn't that easy to toss on a medium-sized table.)
Umbrafer (12:43:47 AM): (What's your vision for How Perception Works?)
Thematrian1 (12:48:13 AM): (That it distinguishes more fully among the different kinds of perception. Remember the discussion about perceiving a thresh metal rocker who's your next door neighbor on Dumpshock?)
Umbrafer (12:48:43 AM): (I don't, actually. I may have missed that, or just forgotten about it)
Thematrian1 (12:49:09 AM): (Oh. Well, the TN start at 7 or 8, because not being able to see him is a big penalty)
Thematrian1 (12:49:34 AM): (People were suggesting things like '-2 for the smell of his ganja', as a way to fix this. No. Just no)
Umbrafer (12:50:00 AM): (Hah. No. Let me see my chart, though‚€¦)
Umbrafer (12:50:21 AM): (For reference, I'm pretty sure I remember these but I want to make certain if I'm debating the sanity of the rules)
Thematrian1 (12:50:24 AM): (So if you differentiate, you can have Invisibility grant +Infinity to Vision TNs, and leave the others alone. The ugly corner cases just go away)
Thematrian1 (12:50:37 AM): (Ah. What's your memory?)
Umbrafer (12:50:54 AM): How loud would you say this Troll thrash rocker is?
Thematrian1 (12:51:12 AM): Airplane taking off when you're inside the engine
Thematrian1 (12:51:15 AM): 120dB
Umbrafer (12:51:32 AM): How would you compare that to a grenade blast?
Thematrian1 (12:51:48 AM): 120dB ismuch louder
Umbrafer (12:52:04 AM): Then the TN, starting with the above, is 0 or -1
Umbrafer (12:52:11 AM): Grenade Blast is -8 to TN
Umbrafer (12:52:17 AM): (Or similar level of sound)
Umbrafer (12:52:40 AM): There's also the fact that the chart I'm looking at now is broken up by sense
Thematrian1 (12:53:07 AM): is it now. That's good. What page?
Umbrafer (12:53:12 AM): I agree more work needs to be done where the senses are both active, but there's a strong case to be made that the vision mods just wouldn't apply to a sound-based perception test.
Umbrafer (12:53:26 AM): I forget where they are in SR3, I'm looking at the GM's screen *dig dig dig*
Thematrian1 (12:53:30 AM): ah
Thematrian1 (12:53:35 AM): nvm, I have the screen now
Umbrafer (12:53:45 AM): Page 3, then.
Thematrian1 (12:56:20 AM): Ok, so calls for a perception test are necessarily tied to a particular sense after all, if this screen is to be believed. Good. My Vision of the Future is also a Vision of the Present
Thematrian1 (12:56:23 AM): good for me
Umbrafer (12:56:52 AM): Right. The part we need to fix is where they intersect.
Umbrafer (12:57:28 AM): For instance, an invisible person fires a gun at the sky, but with a flash suppressor so you don't see any flare to help you find him.
Umbrafer (12:57:47 AM): Your sight TN is pretty high because of not being able to see him
Thematrian1 (12:57:49 AM): the invisibility doesn't cover the flare?
Umbrafer (12:58:10 AM): It probably does, I'm including that detail so that it doesn't have to be addressed either way
Thematrian1 (12:58:17 AM): heh, fair
Umbrafer (12:58:26 AM): Your sound TN, on the other hand, is probably floating somewhere around 2 or less.
Thematrian1 (12:58:34 AM): So for Vision tests, the TN is No. For Hearing, the Tn is Yes
Umbrafer (12:58:53 AM): So what's your TN? Two tests with separate TNs, or (I'll tell you right now this isn't the answer) base+Sight-Sound?
Thematrian1 (12:59:20 AM): that first one. Well, only one test because there's no way to pass the first one, but technically two tests exist
Thematrian1 (12:59:37 AM): It looks like the thread was just full of crap, or I was confused. Good times
Umbrafer (1:00:21 AM): \/\/007. The possible improvement there would be rolling them into one, but I'm not sure if that can be done in ways that make sense.
Umbrafer (1:00:54 AM): With regard to vehicle sensors, though, your problem remains.
Umbrafer (1:01:09 AM): For instance, Alex's van has Sig 2, or something ridiculously low.
Thematrian1 (1:01:16 AM): No, I think that's a poor level of abstraction. One useful thing might be to define a separate category of sense that involves bouncing waves that aren't visible light waves off of things
Thematrian1 (1:01:24 AM): Ultrasound, most notably
Thematrian1 (1:01:35 AM): though Sonar would appear there too
Umbrafer (1:01:38 AM): The question is, what does that mean?
Umbrafer (1:01:44 AM): Does that mean it makes huge amounts of noise?
Umbrafer (1:01:47 AM): Radiates a lot of heat?
Thematrian1 (1:01:50 AM): heh
Thematrian1 (1:01:52 AM): yeah
Umbrafer (1:01:55 AM): Has a large thermal signature?
Umbrafer (1:02:01 AM): Er, radar signature
Thematrian1 (1:02:03 AM): I think I ranted about that on DS once. I know I planned to
Thematrian1 (1:02:12 AM): The canon answer is 'any of the above, figure it out'
Umbrafer (1:02:18 AM): Or some lesser combination of the above that nonetheless make it‚€¦ yeah.
Umbrafer (1:02:26 AM): Which, as it stands, isn't a big problem with vehicle sensors
Thematrian1 (1:02:35 AM): No?
Umbrafer (1:02:38 AM): But when you get a metahuman trying to find a vehicle‚€¦
Thematrian1 (1:02:43 AM): oh
Umbrafer (1:03:06 AM): If it's a large radar signature, it's not going to be any more visible to a person than its size would indicate
Umbrafer (1:03:18 AM): If it runs really hot but doesn't actually glow, anything but thermovision is screwed.
Umbrafer (1:03:28 AM): And if it's noisy, well, even a blind man's going to pick it out.
Thematrian1 (1:03:39 AM): But not a deaf man necessarily. Yeah.
Umbrafer (1:03:44 AM): Indeed.
Thematrian1 (1:03:46 AM): The answer is to shoot signature
Umbrafer (1:04:07 AM): But what to replace it with?
Umbrafer (1:04:22 AM): It's plausible to chop it into a few pieces, but that just creates edge cases and bookkeeping
Thematrian1 (1:04:39 AM): Not at all. You use the same rules for perception that metahumans have to follow.
Umbrafer (1:05:15 AM): Hm. True enough.
Umbrafer (1:05:39 AM): Still, though, it'd be three different base numbers instead of base number with different modifiers
Umbrafer (1:06:02 AM): (And that's assuming that we don't find other things that need to be there in addition to Audio, Thermal, and Radar)
Thematrian1 (1:06:06 AM): For vehicles detecting each other, you mean?
Thematrian1 (1:06:25 AM): Thermal isn't its own sense, it's a set of modifiers that can apply to any sense, though probably only Vision will qualify
Umbrafer (1:06:58 AM): Right, but each vehicle is going to have its own characteristics for each of these
Thematrian1 (1:07:30 AM): ah, I see. Well, I'd argue that that's already true, we're just ignoring it because usually vision is the only important one
Thematrian1 (1:07:46 AM): in the cases where it's not true, the current rules just stop functioning
Umbrafer (1:08:11 AM): That's probably the case, but there's no one important one in vehicle sensors
Umbrafer (1:08:36 AM): We'd probably need a fourth stat for ultrasound, come to think of it‚€¦
Thematrian1 (1:08:53 AM): as distinct from Radar?
Umbrafer (1:10:25 AM): But there's no real reason for ultrasound to have difficulties under those conditions.
Umbrafer (1:10:29 AM): Hm.
Thematrian1 (1:10:32 AM): er?
Umbrafer (1:10:36 AM): AIM appears to have eaten a post.
Thematrian1 (1:10:46 AM): too long, probably
Umbrafer (1:11:32 AM): Radar should probably have (relative) difficulty finding an unmodified pure-meat human in nonmetallic clothing standing near it (though I'll admit to not knowing too much about that interaction)
Umbrafer (1:11:44 AM): Then add the above entry
Thematrian1 (1:11:49 AM): ah
Umbrafer (1:12:04 AM): Incidentally, I found the section in Cannon Companion where it says that people with 3 or less Essence due to Cyber lose a point of Sig
Umbrafer (1:12:13 AM): Which jibes with that
Thematrian1 (1:12:21 AM): ish
Thematrian1 (1:12:32 AM): Alex is essentially indistinguishable from pure human
Thematrian1 (1:12:50 AM): Ceramic bone lacing contains nothing to pick up on
Thematrian1 (1:12:52 AM): et cetera
Umbrafer (1:12:56 AM): True.
Umbrafer (1:13:09 AM): Moreover, excluding some basic capabilities Radar would probably be the only sense that would extend significantly outside of LOS
Umbrafer (1:13:21 AM): (Which jibes to some extent in an oversimplified manner with the massive bonuses for LOS)
Thematrian1 (1:13:39 AM): yeah, that's probably what those were meant to simulate
Umbrafer (1:15:19 AM): Well, at least we're finding evidence that there's some reason for why stuff is the way it is
Umbrafer (1:16:21 AM): I think the hardest part will be finding a way to keep the fact that Riggers should own the road while hopefully eliminating situations where TNs vary between -6 and -2, hitting 2 if sensors are taken completely offline
Thematrian1 (1:17:13 AM): Mm. The extra Reaction and Initiative dice aren't a help, I know, since Wired 3 does the same thing
Thematrian1 (1:17:19 AM): well, Wired X
Thematrian1 (1:17:24 AM): for the right vlaue of X
Umbrafer (1:17:31 AM): (Base Handling 1, moved to 0 by Vehicle Empathy, moved to -6 on most tasks by VCR-3, +8 for total blindness makes 2)
Umbrafer (1:17:51 AM): (To be fair my build is pretty optimized, but still)
Thematrian1 (1:18:10 AM): (But still)
Umbrafer (1:18:49 AM): (Heh, actually‚€¦ I just realized that if I stayed out of combat and made my WIllpower tests, I'd still probably be the best person to drive in the Tuesday games)
Umbrafer (1:18:58 AM): Since I'm dealing with a +7 right now)
Umbrafer (1:19:00 AM): *(
Thematrian1 (1:19:22 AM): (I'd been carefully avoiding thoughts along those lines. But yes. How tough are those Willpower tests?)
Umbrafer (1:20:01 AM): (Pretty tough. TN 6+modifiers, but I only have to make them once unless I sustain more damage.)
Umbrafer (1:20:25 AM): (Movement is halved, I can basically only crawl around, but‚€¦ well, that's less of an issue for me.)
Thematrian1 (1:20:33 AM): Ah. So you need a pair of sixes on one die, but you don't need to reroll until something else hits you?
Thematrian1 (1:20:47 AM): Of course, if that happens you're probably dead anyhow...
Umbrafer (1:20:51 AM): (Yeah. And if something else hits me things have gone horribly wrong anyway.)
Umbrafer (1:20:53 AM): (Exactly.)
Umbrafer (1:21:23 AM): (Incidentally, remind me to buy a crash cage for the van if and when I can)
Thematrian1 (1:21:48 AM): (Heh, sure)
Umbrafer (1:21:52 AM): (Not that I've had to make a crash test yet (or at least not many), and not that I've come close to failing any, but a dirt-cheap +6 dice for everyone inside on the resistance test afterwards is gold)
Umbrafer (1:23:19 AM): Any thoughts on what to do with maneuver score?
Umbrafer (1:23:31 AM): Other than take it out back with surgery rules?
Thematrian1 (1:23:41 AM): Does eliminating it leave a hole that needs filling?
Thematrian1 (1:24:11 AM): The situation it abstracts seems too rare to be worth the bother; just play it out the one time per campaign that it comes up, neh?
Umbrafer (1:24:39 AM): The hole is that it, unlike anything else in the vehicle rules, reflected that a car is more maneuverable than a large van.
Thematrian1 (1:25:21 AM): then the anything needs fixing, and then the need for the Maneuver score will vanish
Thematrian1 (1:25:42 AM): Only thing I can think of is turning radius as a function of speed, and I stole that from Car Wars
Thematrian1 (1:25:43 AM): actually
Umbrafer (1:25:44 AM): The question is how to fix the anything?
Umbrafer (1:25:47 AM): Hehehe
Thematrian1 (1:25:50 AM): we could do worse than to steal from Car Wars
Umbrafer (1:25:56 AM): Hey, I'm game for it
Umbrafer (1:26:03 AM): We're already stealing from Shadowrun, after all ;)
Thematrian1 (1:26:08 AM): heh, right
Umbrafer (1:26:19 AM): The other thing is that it bleeds off a little bit of Control Pool
Umbrafer (1:26:49 AM): Riggers can allocate Control Pool to make an open test, the highest roll of which is added to Maneuver Score.
Thematrian1 (1:27:20 AM): ::nod:: But again, it only becomes relevant in contests between vehicles
Umbrafer (1:27:57 AM): Pretty much. IIRC there are rules for giving a pedestrian a maneuver score, but against any decently maneuverable vehicle or Rigger it pretty much equaled "screwed"
Umbrafer (1:28:25 AM): The fact that it, as far as I can tell, either doesn't handle more than two vehicles or doesn't handle them well doesn't help.
Umbrafer (1:29:03 AM): Also, some of the places it applies are kinda silly.
Thematrian1 (1:29:08 AM): "Goodbye, maneuver score. Don't haunt us." ::blam::
Umbrafer (1:29:13 AM): Acceleration tests, for instance.
Umbrafer (1:29:14 AM): Hehehe
Umbrafer (1:29:16 AM): Sounds good.
Umbrafer (1:29:24 AM): Never really haunted us before, either.
Thematrian1 (1:29:29 AM): wait, you can...gotta be relative, right?
Thematrian1 (1:29:37 AM): relative accel...but if the other vehicle was stationary...dammit
Umbrafer (1:29:45 AM): *Points to its complete non-use in SotSW* I‚€¦ assume so? Yeah, basically.
Umbrafer (1:30:12 AM): That's another thing, it screws stationary vehicles.
Thematrian1 (1:30:16 AM): Yeah, we hatessss it. Or at least, I do
Umbrafer (1:30:17 AM): This usually makes sense
Thematrian1 (1:30:30 AM): stationary vehicles are not maneuverable, it's true
Umbrafer (1:30:37 AM): But when you can go from zero to sound-barrier in one combat turn, starting at zero should really be less of a disadvantage.
Umbrafer (1:31:02 AM): (I exaggerate. I'd probably need at least three or four combat turns in a proper sportscar)
Thematrian1 (1:31:25 AM): Right, but you shouldn't be able to do that
Umbrafer (1:31:30 AM): True.
Thematrian1 (1:31:38 AM): The whole concept of the Acceleration Test is faulty
Umbrafer (1:31:55 AM): How so? I see reasoning on both sides‚€¦
Umbrafer (1:32:40 AM): (I'm assuming that it's including things like optimizing the rate of throttle application to prevent things like wheels overcoming static friction and sliding, that sort of thing)
Thematrian1 (1:32:49 AM): The engine provides a finite quantity of power. This provides an upper bound on the acceleration that the vehicle can produce. Idiots and racers can both...
Umbrafer (1:33:10 AM): Yeah, there should be an upper bound, but I don't think idiots and racers should both reach that.
Thematrian1 (1:33:45 AM): Hm. How hard would those be to handle automatically?
Umbrafer (1:33:46 AM): Though the difference between them will probably be rather less dramatic than that shown in SR3
Umbrafer (1:33:53 AM): I‚€¦ have no idea.
Thematrian1 (1:34:08 AM): And, as you say, I suspect that the difference is marginal.
Umbrafer (1:34:42 AM): (For example, Alex can regularly accelerate at about ten times the base acceleration. Even if we assume that that's for a conservative driver, that's still probably at least twice as fast as someone relatively unskilled)
Thematrian1 (1:35:04 AM): My suspicion is that it would be easy; all the relevant information is local to the vehicle, so the only problem is getting the computer to handle the relevant interrupts fast enough. That's easily done with SR computer tech
Umbrafer (1:35:13 AM): *Nods*
Thematrian1 (1:35:20 AM): (Yeah, hence our various references to the gruesome violations of physics)
Umbrafer (1:36:06 AM): (Lemme see, Blake has Car 3? He's expecting slightly less than two successes, let's give him both of them. That means he accelerates at one-fifth the rate I do, and that's a proficient driver in a world where most people don't have
Umbrafer (1:36:10 AM): (a Cars skill)
Umbrafer (1:37:41 AM): (On a tangent, I'm glad GFOWS didn't decide to be a hero.)
Umbrafer (1:37:58 AM): (Though I'm saddened that TOG did, but it was to be expected.)
Thematrian1 (1:38:06 AM): TOG?
Thematrian1 (1:38:15 AM): come to that, GFOWS?
Umbrafer (1:38:35 AM): (That One Guy, AKA Guy Inside Van. GFOWS= Guy Formerly On Wrong Side)
Thematrian1 (1:39:02 AM): ahhh
Umbrafer (1:39:11 AM): (The only one we haven't acronymized is the mage)
Umbrafer (1:39:26 AM): (MUW? Mage Under Wheel?)
Thematrian1 (1:39:31 AM): Yeah, that'll make more sense once you interrogate him, I think
Umbrafer (1:39:34 AM): (MFUW now, I guess)
Thematrian1 (1:39:39 AM): heh
Umbrafer (1:40:06 AM): He either had a spot of the hero complex himself or didn't have the presence of mind to fight through the pain to dismiss his spirit.
Thematrian1 (1:40:40 AM): As you say, he was busy
Umbrafer (1:41:25 AM): I really thought when he pointed at Blake, said "Kill", and nothing happened that he'd put a control spell on Rock.
Umbrafer (1:41:43 AM): I was very uneasy when Adam proceeded to roll two 8s on his next pass.
Thematrian1 (1:41:49 AM): hahahaha
Thematrian1 (1:42:09 AM): mind control spells are probably illegal to own, even if you're military or police
Thematrian1 (1:42:10 AM): no?
Umbrafer (1:42:52 AM): Technically speaking there's nothing specifically listed about them other than "need a permit for anything above Force 2" and "evidence gathered by Mindprobe is inadmissable in court", but probably.
Thematrian1 (1:43:23 AM): oh. Yeah, I just avoided mind control on his spell list on that basis
Thematrian1 (1:43:34 AM): and then, in the fight, discovered why Stunbolt can be better than Stunball
Umbrafer (1:43:46 AM): Heh. Do tell?
Thematrian1 (1:43:55 AM): There was no one he could target without including himself in the effect radius
Umbrafer (1:44:02 AM): :D
Umbrafer (1:44:15 AM): Technically he could have reduced the radius, but that means sacrificing huge numbers of dice
Umbrafer (1:44:24 AM): (IIRC -2 dice for every -1 meter radius)
Thematrian1 (1:44:38 AM): Yeah, I vaguely remember those rules. Remember thinking 'nope, never doing this', and moving on
Umbrafer (1:45:05 AM): The only other thing he could have done was go for lower Force, and, well‚€¦
Umbrafer (1:45:07 AM): Yeah.
Umbrafer (1:45:23 AM): I don't know what Rock's Willpower is, but with the rest of us that ain't happening.
Thematrian1 (1:45:39 AM): It's, well, there are several factors
Umbrafer (1:45:52 AM): Spell defense as well, probably
Umbrafer (1:46:04 AM): In retrospect running him over was a good call even if there wasn't a spell he was sustaining I could break.
Thematrian1 (1:46:25 AM): I have a feeling that I'm going to hear that a lot, from you
Umbrafer (1:46:31 AM): And those five successes were welcome. Even though I probably could have used the karma point on my second resistance test, I don't regret spending it.
Umbrafer (1:46:33 AM): ?
Umbrafer (1:46:50 AM): After we get more info, or just because running people over is my style?
Thematrian1 (1:46:58 AM): that second one
Umbrafer (1:47:00 AM): Hehehe
Thematrian1 (1:47:03 AM): this is the sceond mage you've run over
Umbrafer (1:47:08 AM): This is true.
Thematrian1 (1:47:16 AM): and you're entering a place with a bunch of toxic shamen
Umbrafer (1:47:41 AM): Insect shaman, actually, unless there are toxics too
Umbrafer (1:47:55 AM): I run people over, Blake drops burning thermite on them, Trickster bites them in tender spots‚€¦
Umbrafer (1:48:01 AM): Rock is the well-adjusted one.
Thematrian1 (1:48:10 AM): heh
Thematrian1 (1:48:13 AM): is now
Umbrafer (1:49:48 AM): Maybe if we survive and get the van warded we can go into business as mage extermination specialists.
Thematrian1 (1:50:16 AM): collect bounties on blood mages and toxics? It could happen
Umbrafer (1:50:27 AM): Those are live bounties. I just mean wetwork.
Umbrafer (1:50:29 AM): :)
Thematrian1 (1:50:36 AM): hehe
Umbrafer (1:52:07 AM): (That'd certainly be incentive for Blake to pay for that last point of karma)
Umbrafer (1:52:14 AM): (Er, Willpower)
Thematrian1 (1:54:18 AM): ok, I'm gonna sleep now
Thematrian1 (1:54:21 AM): good luck on Tuesday
Umbrafer (1:54:30 AM): Hehehe
Umbrafer (1:54:32 AM): Thanks.
Umbrafer (1:54:37 AM): *Waves* Sleep well.
Thematrian1 has left the chat room.

Chat room exited at 7/1/2005 1:54:47 AM.