New chat room entered at 7/14/2005 8:35:25 PM.
You are now in chat room “sotsw071405.”
MilesMk1 has entered the chat room.

Vernjonal has entered the chat room.

CirclMastr has entered the chat room.

Thematrian1 has entered the chat room.

CirclMastr (8:36:04 PM): Yarr and such
Umbrafer (8:36:27 PM): Take us closer to the wind!
CirclMastr (8:36:28 PM): So, where'd we leave off?
Thematrian1 (8:36:46 PM): we were climbing into a pipe
CirclMastr (8:36:57 PM): Ah yes
Umbrafer (8:38:55 PM): As I remember, you were in the midst of cutting the seal off?
Thematrian1 (8:39:02 PM): ah, right
Thematrian1 (8:39:08 PM): needed to finish that first
MilesMk1 (8:40:27 PM): Right.
Umbrafer (8:40:39 PM): Well, it looks like it will just take a matter of time. The question is, how are you cutting, and are you taking any steps to keep the seal from just falling straight in afterwards?
Thematrian1 (8:40:59 PM): that second thing sounds worth doing
MilesMk1 (8:41:02 PM): I was about to comment on that.
Umbrafer (8:42:37 PM): I await further word on exactly what said steps will be.
MilesMk1 (8:42:50 PM): My intention is to angle the beam so that the cut ends up beveled (angling it towards the center of the cover), preventing the cover from falling in, and then just cutting basically a small (2-3" diameter) semi-cricle on the
CirclMastr (8:42:52 PM): (Mmmm, new golf gloves)
MilesMk1 (8:43:05 PM): edge in one place to use as a handhold / place to insert a prybar.
Umbrafer (8:43:12 PM): *Nods*
CirclMastr (8:43:33 PM): We have a prybar?
MilesMk1 (8:43:42 PM): Well... Hypothetical prybar...
Thematrian1 (8:43:46 PM): we have a big stick
Umbrafer (8:43:51 PM): You cut for a while. Roll… hm. Reaction? (Being as it is an average of QUickness and Intelligence) to cut a steady circle with a proper bevel.
Thematrian1 (8:43:52 PM): or can find one
Thematrian1 (8:43:54 PM): MacLeod was bored, right?
MilesMk1 (8:44:00 PM): I have a car, it probably has a lug wrench I could use in a pinch...
CirclMastr (8:44:12 PM): More or less, yes
MilesMk1 (8:44:16 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 4 3 2 4 3 4
MilesMk1 (8:44:25 PM): Hope it wasn't a hard task...
Umbrafer (8:45:03 PM): Not all that hard, just required a lot of successes (4s) to do perfectly. As it is, you did it passably.
Umbrafer (8:46:31 PM): You've now cut a beveled circle out, with a smaller beveled section on the edge of that circle that you can probably slip out.
Umbrafer (8:46:35 PM): Roll Perception.
Umbrafer (8:46:38 PM): (Everyone)
Thematrian1 (8:46:43 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 4 6 4 6 1 2
CirclMastr (8:46:46 PM): CirclMastr rolled 4 6-sided dice: 3 6 1 2
CirclMastr (8:46:48 PM): CirclMastr rolled 1 6-sided die: 5
Thematrian1 (8:46:49 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 2 6-sided dice: 6 2
CirclMastr (8:46:50 PM): (11)
Thematrian1 (8:46:53 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 1 6-sided die: 4
CirclMastr (8:47:04 PM): (MacLeod may or may not have seen/heard something)
Thematrian1 (8:47:06 PM): 16 8 4 4 2 1
Thematrian1 (8:47:39 PM): (powers of two)
MilesMk1 (8:47:47 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 6 2 3 2 5 1
Thematrian1 (8:47:51 PM): (stupid extra four)
Umbrafer (8:48:03 PM): (Indeed. If only you'd rolled a 32 as well.)
Umbrafer (8:48:33 PM): MacLeod gets that nagging feeling again, but weaker.
CirclMastr (8:49:01 PM): "...Did I forget my sword?" *checks* "Nope, still there..."
Thematrian1 (8:49:23 PM): (Yeah, but where's 'there'?)
CirclMastr (8:49:29 PM): (Under my coat)
Umbrafer (8:49:40 PM): Gem, meanwhile, hears the cry of a bird somewhere in the middle distance.
Umbrafer (8:49:59 PM): Actions?
Thematrian1 (8:50:05 PM): #Something annoyed the birds#
CirclMastr (8:50:13 PM): #Wasn't me.#
CirclMastr (8:50:21 PM): #Want me to check it out?#
Thematrian1 (8:50:22 PM): #Could be a person. Glitch, check it out.#
Thematrian1 (8:50:38 PM): #He's nigh-invisible, you're just hard to kill.#
Thematrian1 (8:50:47 PM): #Meanwhile, we finish the laser cutting#
MilesMk1 (8:50:48 PM): #All right...#
Thematrian1 (8:51:02 PM): To the forest spirit: "Oh spirit, conceal this man" ::pointing to Glitch::
CirclMastr (8:51:04 PM): #Don't get killed, I can't heft your body back by myself.#
MilesMk1 (8:51:17 PM): *hands off the laser cutter and sneaks out to see* #I don't weight all that much.#
Thematrian1 (8:51:18 PM): (It's a mere F4, not the F7 he had before, but it couldn't enter this domain, so...)
Umbrafer (8:51:20 PM): *Vzoorp*
MilesMk1 (8:51:33 PM): (weigh)
MilesMk1 (8:52:36 PM): (Ooh... Man on Fire is on. Now that's a good movie for getting into the SR mindset...)
MilesMk1 (8:52:58 PM): (I can tell by the music he's currently cutting the guy's fingers off. I think I've been watching it too much...)
CirclMastr (8:52:58 PM): (Unless you, like me, hate Dakota Fanning)
Umbrafer (8:53:18 PM): Glitch sneaks. Everyone else?
MilesMk1 (8:53:19 PM): (I like Dakota Fanning. And she's not there for half the movie anyway...)
Thematrian1 (8:53:22 PM): (Never even heard of man on fire)
Umbrafer (8:53:30 PM): (That makes two of us)
Thematrian1 (8:53:31 PM): (Man on Fire)
MilesMk1 (8:53:32 PM): (Denzel Washington movie.)
Thematrian1 (8:53:36 PM): (man on fire I've heard of once or twice)
Thematrian1 (8:53:38 PM): (Ooh)
Umbrafer (8:53:43 PM): (I mean, I've heard of individual men, some of whom have been on fire)
CirclMastr (8:53:46 PM): (Denzel Washington is bodyguarding Dakota Fanning, she gets kidnapped, he kicks much ass in getting her back)
Umbrafer (8:53:51 PM): (And I am too slow)
Thematrian1 (8:54:11 PM): To MacLeod: "You cut, I watch?"
Umbrafer (8:54:16 PM): In any event.
CirclMastr (8:54:25 PM): "Not sure how good I am with a laser, but I'll give it a shot."
Thematrian1 (8:54:46 PM): "Just cut toward the center, like he was doing
CirclMastr (8:55:04 PM): *takes the laser tool and gives it a shot*
Umbrafer (8:55:22 PM): You'd finished the cuts by the time you heard this.
Thematrian1 (8:55:28 PM): oh
Thematrian1 (8:55:41 PM): Can we get the cover off, then?
CirclMastr (8:55:44 PM): (*retcons the entire convo* *whistles innocently*)
Umbrafer (8:56:11 PM): It would take some muscling, but probably. A stick would make it easier.
MilesMk1 (8:56:52 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 3 5 6 1 2 1
MilesMk1 (8:56:57 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 1 6-sided die: 4
CirclMastr (8:57:23 PM): (MacLeod can use his katana! It's Dikoted with MAGIC!)
MilesMk1 (8:58:26 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 4 4 4 3 2 4
MilesMk1 (8:59:48 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 5 1 4 4 2 6
Thematrian1 (9:00:15 PM): I look around for a stick. Perception if needed:
Thematrian1 (9:00:16 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 2 1 2 5 6 3
Umbrafer (9:01:04 PM): Umbrafer rolled 15 6-sided dice: 2 2 1 3 4 6 2 5 1 3 3 5 1 6 1
Umbrafer (9:01:09 PM): Umbrafer rolled 2 6-sided dice: 3 3
MilesMk1 (9:01:10 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 1 4 2 2 2 5
CirclMastr (9:01:32 PM): (The number of dice being rolled makes me scared.)
Thematrian1 (9:01:43 PM): (It's a trick)
Thematrian1 (9:01:56 PM): (Practically nothing gets to actually roll 15 dice)
Umbrafer (9:02:38 PM): (Riggers with sensor-enhanced gunnery and adepts with Improved Ability roll more than 15 dice not infrequently)
CirclMastr (9:02:40 PM): (I meant the number of times, not necessarily J's hidden dice)
Umbrafer (9:02:48 PM): (Same with Probe/Scout IC)
Thematrian1 (9:02:58 PM): (Oh, I see)
Thematrian1 (9:03:13 PM): (Gunnery 6 + 1/2 sensor dice? But yeah, ok, dual-wielding adepts)
Thematrian1 (9:03:23 PM): (Right, and pool, ok)
Umbrafer (9:03:26 PM): (Gunnery 6 +1/2 Sensor +combat pool)
Umbrafer (9:03:28 PM): (Yeah)
Umbrafer (9:03:32 PM): (Alex throws 14)
Thematrian1 (9:03:40 PM): (I've seen)
Umbrafer (9:03:47 PM): You've found a stick, the roll was not needed.
Umbrafer (9:03:53 PM): One of the good parts of being in the woods.
Thematrian1 (9:03:57 PM): (A hypothetical being with 14 unarmed dice and 13 combat pool could roll 27)
Thematrian1 (9:04:03 PM): Yeah, I figured, but just in case.
MilesMk1 (9:04:08 PM): #Just another damn dog, or coyote, I think.#
Thematrian1 (9:04:12 PM): ::climbs down next to MacLeod::
Thematrian1 (9:04:14 PM): "Do you need a lever?"
CirclMastr (9:04:26 PM): "Would be useful, yeah."
Thematrian1 (9:04:35 PM): ::gives MacLeod The Stick::
CirclMastr (9:04:55 PM): ::takes The Stick reverently::
Thematrian1 (9:05:03 PM): #Good. Did it come from near the well?#
CirclMastr (9:05:20 PM): #What?#
MilesMk1 (9:05:55 PM): #Nah... Around the backpack shreds... And it sounds like the pooch just met the blood kites and left in a real hurry. I'm heading back before I meet them again...#
CirclMastr (9:06:37 PM): ::pries open the lid::
Thematrian1 (9:06:38 PM): #Check.#
Thematrian1 (9:06:48 PM): ::stands ready to grab it::
Thematrian1 (9:06:57 PM): (if it looks like it's going to fall in, I mean)
MilesMk1 (9:07:20 PM): (Theoretically it should be physically impossible for it to fall in if I did the cut right. We'll see...)
MilesMk1 (9:07:40 PM): The Cut, I mean.
Thematrian1 (9:07:53 PM): heh
Umbrafer (9:08:14 PM): (It could still fall against the side and make a lot of noise)
Umbrafer (9:08:30 PM): It takes some heaving and some quick work, but you…
Umbrafer (9:08:32 PM): Umbrafer rolled 15 6-sided dice: 1 5 5 3 3 4 5 1 5 1 3 4 2 3 5
Umbrafer (9:08:53 PM): Manage to force the circle off without it clanging against anything much.
CirclMastr (9:09:18 PM): "Huzzah."
Umbrafer (9:09:23 PM): The pipe extends downwards.
Umbrafer (9:10:02 PM): You can see, at the bottom, tiny cracks of light.
CirclMastr (9:10:16 PM): "...Why is there light at the bottom there?"
Umbrafer (9:10:40 PM): Correction:
Umbrafer (9:10:51 PM): They're on one wall, down towards the bottom.
Thematrian1 (9:11:05 PM): "Excellent question. Why don't you go answer it?"
MilesMk1 (9:11:58 PM): Let me know when I get back.
CirclMastr (9:12:22 PM): "Oh fine." ::heads down the pipe::
Thematrian1 (9:12:32 PM): ::crouches at the top, looking down::
Umbrafer (9:12:57 PM): *Climb climb climb*
Umbrafer (9:13:39 PM): You reach the bottom. Most of the pipe is circular, but there's a flat wall towards the bottom. It's from this flat wall that the light comes.
Umbrafer (9:13:57 PM): You are, as I remember, almost blind in these conditions.
CirclMastr (9:14:18 PM): (I have no vision enchancers, true)
CirclMastr (9:14:25 PM): #It's fucking dark.#
Thematrian1 (9:14:49 PM): #Anything interesting about that light?#
CirclMastr (9:15:07 PM): #There's a flat wall on one side down here, that's where the light is from.#
Thematrian1 (9:15:26 PM): #From cracks, or is the wall itself translucent?#
CirclMastr (9:15:44 PM): (Can I tell?)
MilesMk1 (9:16:20 PM): (The flat wall is vertical, or horizontal?)
CirclMastr (9:17:20 PM): (.....It's a WALL, it goes both ways? heh)
Umbrafer (9:17:22 PM): (Cracks, and… um?)
CirclMastr (9:17:36 PM): #Cracks in the wall.#
Thematrian1 (9:17:44 PM): ::climbs into the pipe::
Umbrafer (9:18:58 PM): You descend into the depths.
Thematrian1 (9:19:01 PM): ::studies the wall intently::
Umbrafer (9:19:26 PM): With your greater visual capabilities, you notice that the plascrete on that side is definitely lighter in shade than the stuff on the other walls.
Umbrafer (9:19:39 PM): It's the side that adjoins the tunnel.
MilesMk1 (9:20:48 PM): I'm sorry, but I'm confused...
Umbrafer (9:20:52 PM): Relevant construction-related skill to determine more, or perception to look through.
Umbrafer (9:20:55 PM): Source of confusion?
MilesMk1 (9:21:02 PM): The exact environment...
MilesMk1 (9:21:38 PM): They're in a horizontal circular pipe now, with a wall blocking the way in one direction, and some light coming through cracks in it? Or is it some other setup?
Umbrafer (9:21:55 PM): They're at the bottom of a vertical circular pipe
MilesMk1 (9:22:14 PM): Ah. The bottom of the "stump".
Umbrafer (9:22:17 PM): Yep
MilesMk1 (9:22:18 PM): Got it.
Umbrafer (9:22:30 PM): And the wall where it connects with the horizontal tunnel is flat and plascrete-y
Umbrafer (9:22:32 PM): (With cracks)
Umbrafer (9:23:46 PM): Gem appreciates the fine grain of the plascrete.
Umbrafer (9:25:14 PM): Time passes. Gem hears the sound of speech from beyond.
Thematrian1 (9:25:36 PM): *astral senses on*
MilesMk1 (9:25:39 PM): Danger! Danger!
Umbrafer (9:26:02 PM): Umbrafer rolled 10 6-sided dice: 5 3 1 1 6 2 4 4 5 2
Umbrafer (9:26:06 PM): Umbrafer rolled 1 6-sided die: 3
Thematrian1 (9:26:08 PM): They're immune to darkness penalties...looking for auras in both directions, what do I find?
Umbrafer (9:26:49 PM): You find a wall of the pipe on one side, MacLeod and the other wall on the other side, and not much peering through the cracks.
Umbrafer (9:27:43 PM): (To clarify, because I'm leaving out details all over the place tonight (sorry, I'm not sure what's up with my brain), those are voices from beyond the differently-colored plascrete)
Thematrian1 (9:28:55 PM): ::feels her heartbeat return to normal as her directional hearing kicks in::
Umbrafer (9:30:05 PM): (You're in a not-that-large pipe, the only exit from which at this time is up)
Umbrafer (9:31:26 PM): "So anyway, I told him… aw, crap, is that a draft?"
Thematrian1 (9:31:31 PM): ::figures out, with GPS aid, where the plant is relative to us::
Umbrafer (9:31:37 PM): *Pause*
Thematrian1 (9:31:38 PM): ::backs away from the light::
Umbrafer (9:31:51 PM): "I think it is."
Umbrafer (9:32:01 PM): "Christ, how come nothing works around here?"
Umbrafer (9:32:13 PM): You hear something that sounds very much like someone kicking the wall.
Thematrian1 (9:32:24 PM): ::backs away from the light some more::
Umbrafer (9:32:57 PM): "Take it easy, we'll just call maintenance.
Umbrafer (9:32:59 PM): *"
Umbrafer (9:33:55 PM): "Yeah, maintenance. Maintenance my ass, they can't even find that leak near the signaling station."
Umbrafer (9:34:13 PM): (The plant or the monitoring facility?)
Umbrafer (9:34:33 PM): "Leaks are a tricky business…" The voices fade into the distance.
Umbrafer (9:36:05 PM): There's more murmurs and footsteps for a bit, then silence.
CirclMastr (9:38:00 PM): #Now what?#
Thematrian1 (9:38:51 PM): #We move. But...I think we want to be in the tunnel they're in#
CirclMastr (9:39:13 PM): #I still have my sword.#
Umbrafer (9:40:32 PM): 'Minds me, retroactive Perception for Gem investigating the suspicious wall.
Thematrian1 (9:40:45 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 2 1 4 1 3 1
Thematrian1 (9:40:57 PM): #No, if we kill them, or even leave them unconscious, they'll be missed.#
Umbrafer (9:42:09 PM): Gem has nothing.
Thematrian1 (9:43:15 PM): yeah
Thematrian1 (9:43:43 PM): Judging by GPS, can we follow this tunnel into the target area?
CirclMastr (9:43:46 PM): #I was thinking cutting through the wall.#
Umbrafer (9:44:51 PM): Judging by the GPS, yes. This ought to be the tunnel that leads between the target station and the power plant.
MilesMk1 (9:45:15 PM): #Hey, Gem, if we do cut through the wall, do you think you'll be able to have a spirit hide the opening?#
Thematrian1 (9:45:40 PM): #Spirits focus on things. Hiding something that_isn't_...I'm not sure I could even communicate the concept.#
Umbrafer (9:46:25 PM): (I hear some types of toxic spirits are very clear on the concept of things that aren't :D )
MilesMk1 (9:46:29 PM): #Then we have a problem... We'll need to figure out some way to hide our way in.#
Thematrian1 (9:46:34 PM): (Yeah, but I can't summon those)
CirclMastr (9:46:37 PM): (dinner, brb)
MilesMk1 (9:46:44 PM): (BTW, did I rejoin the other two by now?)
Thematrian1 (9:46:56 PM): #Well, let's try to follow this tunnel first. We'd have to go that way# ::points::
Umbrafer (9:47:55 PM): (You're within sight of the hole now)
MilesMk1 (9:47:58 PM): (Actually, we can't follow the tunnel just yet... Can we? We're still in the "stump", not the tunnel proper, I thought?)
Umbrafer (9:48:17 PM): (Indeed. You've followed your tunnel as far as it goes, which is not very far straight down)
MilesMk1 (9:48:59 PM): (Well, once I do get back The Hole, I'd like to go in (switch places with Macleod, maybe?) and examine the wall and so on myself.)
Thematrian1 (9:49:12 PM): (Oh. Well, let me try it this way: do we need to bust open that wall to get where we're going?)
Umbrafer (9:49:54 PM): (Yes. Or find a different way through it or a different path to the tunnel on the other side.))
Umbrafer (9:49:56 PM): *-)
Umbrafer (9:50:51 PM): Glitch gruffly demands that MacLeod exit the hole, or otherwise indicates his desire to investigate the area without overly packing the space.
Umbrafer (9:52:45 PM): Since MacLeod's player is absent, such a transfer takes place.
Thematrian1 (9:53:44 PM): Cracked plascrete...
Umbrafer (9:55:38 PM): (Perception if you want to investigate, as usual)
Thematrian1 (9:55:44 PM): Thematrian1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 1 2 3 1 3 3
Thematrian1 (9:55:49 PM): son of a
Umbrafer (9:56:09 PM): (Gem had already done so, I was talking more to Glitch)
Thematrian1 (9:56:20 PM): #Nice plascrete. Closed spaces aren't my specialty; do either of you have a plan?#
MilesMk1 (9:57:37 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 6 6-sided dice: 3 2 6 2 1 5
MilesMk1 (9:57:45 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 1 6-sided die: 6
MilesMk1 (9:57:49 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 1 6-sided die: 4
MilesMk1 (9:58:04 PM): 16,5
Umbrafer (9:58:30 PM): Well, you don't have that great a handle on the makeup, but you do notice that the edges of the plascrete are of a third, distinct variety from the other two.
Umbrafer (9:58:54 PM): They appear to be attached in strands, perhaps even slapped or sprayed on.
MilesMk1 (9:59:24 PM): #Looks like someone stuck a slab of plascrete in place... Too bad we don't have any way to bond it back in...#
Thematrian1 (10:03:56 PM): ::ponder::
MilesMk1 (10:05:11 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 8 6-sided dice: 4 3 6 1 3 1 2 1
MilesMk1 (10:05:19 PM): MilesMk1 rolled 1 6-sided die: 5
Umbrafer (10:06:54 PM): The slap-on plascrete strikes you as a poor security decision. Though it isn't as bad as, say, Plasteel-7, you've heard that most plascrete adhesives tend to be comparatively easily dissolved with the proper substances applied.
Umbrafer (10:08:47 PM): Time passes.
MilesMk1 (10:10:07 PM): Do I own any such substances? I don't suppose I do...
Umbrafer (10:10:55 PM): You don't own any, no.
Thematrian1 (10:10:56 PM): We both have chemistry chips...I expect we could find or make some
Thematrian1 (10:11:14 PM): Would it be legit to send Scavengers on a grocery run? Is this the sort of thing we could find quickly?
CirclMastr (10:11:38 PM): (Back)
Umbrafer (10:12:06 PM): You can send her on a grocery run, sure. You need to set up the purchase(s), though
Umbrafer (10:12:29 PM): And you aren't sure about how fast you could find this sort of thing, but worst-case scenario is palm-greasing may speed it up
CirclMastr (10:13:04 PM): (Kick in the wall and kill everyone! </hulk> )
MilesMk1 (10:13:36 PM): Well... We still have time.
MilesMk1 (10:14:10 PM): It could be wise to use this time to buy some chemical to dissolve it, a can of spray-on to seal it back up, and maybe a camo tarp or something to cover the hole we made.
CirclMastr (10:14:31 PM): (Because no one will notice that the wall patch turned into forest camo?)
MilesMk1 (10:14:43 PM): I meant the hole upstairs...
CirclMastr (10:14:51 PM): (Oh)
Umbrafer (10:14:55 PM): (For reference, the Plasteel-7 catalyst, while fairly hard to find, is available in 48 hours, and it's a much more complex chemical.)
MilesMk1 (10:15:56 PM): (I assume spray-on plascrete or whatever could be had from any hardware store, right? So at worst, we'd have something we could use to seal it back up if we cut it some other way, and increase the chances it won't be noticed...)
Thematrian1 (10:16:19 PM): I can tell a spirit to cover over that hole.
Thematrian1 (10:16:22 PM): The one in the forest
Umbrafer (10:16:25 PM): (You can send Scavs and Gustave on shoping expeditions if you desire) Indeed, spray-on plascrete is pretty available.
MilesMk1 (10:18:14 PM): True. But that makes it hard for us to get out.
Thematrian1 (10:18:38 PM): I meant, after we've left
MilesMk1 (10:18:50 PM): Oh, right.
MilesMk1 (10:19:01 PM): Yeah, I just meant it as a temporary solution while we're working down here.
MilesMk1 (10:19:32 PM): I dunno... What do you guys think as far as getting in here is concerned? Worth waiting to get the stuff?
Thematrian1 (10:20:57 PM): Do we have a choice? What time is it?
Umbrafer (10:22:36 PM): It's almost 4:00, at this point.
MilesMk1 (10:26:05 PM): Leaving us about... 14-15 hours total until our deadline, yes?
Umbrafer (10:26:54 PM): Needs to be done by sundown, and it's currently Summer, so closer to 16-17 hours.
Umbrafer (10:27:24 PM): (Possibly late Spring. Either way, days == long)
MilesMk1 (10:27:33 PM): I really don't know...
MilesMk1 (10:28:21 PM): I mean, getting better supplies seems sensible to me, but we've just been sort of blundering through things, making me thing we're making a mess of things, and doubt my ideas...
MilesMk1 (10:28:27 PM): think
MilesMk1 (10:31:35 PM): (And I'm feeling sort of fried, to be honest...)
Umbrafer (10:33:30 PM): (Well, if no one has any ideas on how to proceed it may be time to break until next week…)
Umbrafer (10:33:47 PM): (Though I do suggest determining at least general courses of action that you can consider over the intervening time)
Thematrian1 (10:34:02 PM): I think the question is 'groceries or no?'
MilesMk1 (10:35:44 PM): Given that the alternative is just going in and hoping for the best, I'd vote for gorceries (and listening for a while to see if we can figure out the pattern of any patrols) but it's up to you guys...
Thematrian1 (10:36:29 PM): groceries means doing the bulk of the run during the day
CirclMastr (10:36:30 PM): I vote for I have no ideas.
MilesMk1 (10:36:52 PM): True.
MilesMk1 (10:37:20 PM): Although I don't think a monitoring station, by its very nature, would necessairly have a heavier guard presence during the day...
Thematrian1 (10:37:47 PM): Good point. And now, we have an approach that doesn't require the cover of darkness
Umbrafer (10:38:50 PM): Though it does make getting the van to and from the edge of the forest somewhat dicier
Umbrafer (10:39:17 PM): That said, if you're willing to walk there's probably a second place you could arrange pickup from, and you probably have enough time for a shopping run before twilight gets too bright
MilesMk1 (10:40:34 PM): Hmm... Well, that's something to think about... I guess my vote is for a grocery run. To be continued next week?
Thematrian1 (10:40:41 PM): yeah
MilesMk1 (10:40:59 PM): All right... Good night, then.
MilesMk1 (10:41:02 PM): *waves*
Umbrafer (10:41:07 PM): Sleep well. *Waves*
MilesMk1 has left the chat room.

Umbrafer (10:42:58 PM): Reading Flash code sucks.
Thematrian1 (10:43:32 PM): heh
Thematrian1 (10:43:37 PM): what's so terrible about flash?
Umbrafer (10:44:17 PM): Well, I decompiled the partially-complete vehicle generator that the other person on Dumpshock had made
Thematrian1 (10:44:32 PM): ...and it was in Flash?
Umbrafer (10:44:35 PM): And, well, it took about four thousand lines until I found code that I could verify was about generating vehicles.
Umbrafer (10:44:37 PM): Yes.
Thematrian1 (10:44:42 PM): isn't flash agraphics app?
Umbrafer (10:44:48 PM): Er, yes.
Thematrian1 (10:44:50 PM): like, not meant for applications of any character?
Umbrafer (10:45:09 PM): Sorta. You can write applications in it, or perhaps "create" is the better term
Umbrafer (10:45:18 PM): The most common applications being games
Umbrafer (10:45:41 PM): It's certainly not the right tool for the job, but it's apparently what he was familiar with.
Thematrian1 (10:46:01 PM): well, I guess I can't fault him for that
Thematrian1 (10:46:05 PM): but it sounds unpleasant
Umbrafer (10:47:04 PM): Yeah, definitely can't fault him on it. On the other hand, I suspect the most I can get from it is a headache (well, that and the original inspiration to make a vehicle generator in something actually somewha meant for applications)
Umbrafer (10:47:06 PM): *somewhat
Umbrafer (10:47:26 PM): The fact that it's all in one big movie metaphor doesn't help
Umbrafer (10:47:40 PM): (To change from one screen to another involves jumping to a different frame)
Thematrian1 (10:47:58 PM): ...I guess that's not 100% inappropriate. But
Umbrafer (10:48:23 PM): By the way, got a newb question for you:
Umbrafer (10:48:43 PM): What's the proper way to roll functions out into support files for easy replacement/tracking?
Thematrian1 (10:49:07 PM): there isn't one
Umbrafer (10:49:12 PM): I tried just importing the relevant file, but it always expected to find class decl… oh.
Umbrafer (10:49:20 PM): Well, suxxor.
Umbrafer (10:49:24 PM): Any particular reason?
CirclMastr (10:49:39 PM): Because God hates you.
Umbrafer (10:50:23 PM): (We've already established that, I'm just wondering if He bothered to justify it with some issue that I haven't thought about)
Thematrian1 (10:50:40 PM): 1 class per file is often used
Thematrian1 (10:50:50 PM): Java, frex, requires it
Umbrafer (10:50:55 PM): I remember that.
Umbrafer (10:51:12 PM): Ironically enough, that probably did more to inhibit my understanding of classes than anything else in that course.
Thematrian1 (10:51:30 PM): yeah
Umbrafer (10:51:53 PM): "Oh, yeah, a class is a… something, and it goes in a different file! I get it!"
Thematrian1 (10:52:38 PM): heh
Thematrian1 (10:53:05 PM): It's not a bad discipline, but it sounds like Python requires it
Thematrian1 (10:53:06 PM): which is alarming
Umbrafer (10:53:14 PM): ?
Thematrian1 (10:53:55 PM): the big advantage of python is that it's not a bondage and discipline language. So why require separate files for class definitions? Unless it doesn't; my Python-fu is patchy
Umbrafer (10:54:03 PM): It doesn't.
Umbrafer (10:54:17 PM): I just rolled it off into one to keep everything tidy.
CirclMastr (10:55:23 PM): Yet another reminder that I hate coding.
CirclMastr has left the chat room.

Umbrafer (10:56:03 PM): Though I didn't bother with the one class/one file bit. If I end up with enough classes at the end that it's a monstrosity I might, but right now I don't really see the point.
Thematrian1 (10:56:45 PM): if anything, it goes the other way; with lots of classes the 1/file discipline becomes more trouble than it's worth
Umbrafer (10:57:27 PM): Well, I wasn't going to split into 1/file, but I might split into a few files if reasonable division lines presented themselves.
Thematrian1 (10:57:33 PM): ::nod::
Umbrafer (10:58:37 PM): So basically when SR3R comes it'll be time to just hunt through for all the functions and make the changes there. Fair enough.
Umbrafer (11:00:35 PM): What about you, been up to anything in particular interesting?
Thematrian1 (11:00:49 PM): RPG pathfinding, or more generally dynamic-environment pathfinding
Thematrian1 (11:00:58 PM): it turns out to be both hard and relatively unexplored
Thematrian1 (11:01:04 PM): my roommate wants me to publish to the ACM
Umbrafer (11:02:14 PM): Hah. Yeah, pathfinding is one of those things that's been implemented poorly for so long that I've come to the conclusion that it must be a nightmare
Thematrian1 (11:02:26 PM): well
Thematrian1 (11:02:30 PM): all the research is for robots
Thematrian1 (11:02:51 PM): which operate in pretty lame environments, compared to game characters
Umbrafer (11:04:06 PM): So very true.
Umbrafer (11:04:16 PM): I mean, robots never even have to deal with fire arrows.
Umbrafer (11:05:33 PM): Pathfinding, rule 967: the shortest path is never through the Trow.
Thematrian1 (11:05:52 PM): well, see, often it _is_
Thematrian1 (11:05:59 PM): that's just part of the problem
Umbrafer (11:06:18 PM): I suppose it depends on which direction the Trow kicks you.
Umbrafer (11:06:33 PM): And how much of you needs to be intact to define "arriving"
Umbrafer (11:06:42 PM): But that's probably not a concern in this case.
Umbrafer (11:12:33 PM): Incidentally, I see what you mean about the verbosity of XML.
Thematrian1 (11:13:08 PM): there are standards for it, but they make things worse rather than better
Thematrian1 (11:13:21 PM): the people who like XML are, in general, people who don't care about verbosity
Umbrafer (11:14:10 PM): To some degree I'm one of those people, I suppose—my variable names especially tend to get out of control
Thematrian1 (11:14:20 PM): that's not what I mean
Umbrafer (11:14:30 PM): True
Umbrafer (11:16:03 PM): I'm tempted to roll some of these tags into tag attributes, but that just seems like it'd reduce readability without doing all that much to improve things
Thematrian1 (11:16:33 PM): Just shoot XML in the face, define your own data format, and supply something that converts your format to XML
Thematrian1 (11:16:42 PM): that's what I do, every time my employer says 'we need this in XML'
Thematrian1 (11:16:49 PM): and I'm 3/3 in getting paid ;-)
Umbrafer (11:17:49 PM): Hehehe
Thematrian1 (11:18:33 PM): seriously, it means not hating yourself and you get experience in structuring data formats. How can you lose?
Umbrafer (11:18:40 PM): Nah, my real plan is to get a solid definition, a few examples, and then recruit Dumpshockers to fill in the rest for me. Hopefully I can accumulate effectively limitless cheap labour ;)
Umbrafer (11:18:42 PM): This is true.
Umbrafer (11:19:25 PM): On the other hand, I think it's already almost at the point where it's a matter of filling in the values anyway.
Umbrafer (11:19:34 PM): Well, that and figuring out what all "the values" are needed.
Thematrian1 (11:19:42 PM): right
Umbrafer (11:21:50 PM): Hm. My plans are just forming and they already include slave labor. Maybe I should go to the business school instead.
Thematrian1 (11:22:20 PM): hey, exploiting slave labor is a free software tradition
Thematrian1 (11:22:28 PM): it's only evil if you sell the program afterward
Umbrafer (11:23:20 PM): I'll sell it to anyone who will pay for it. Given that it's getting distributed under the BSD license or something very close to it, I suspect I won't get much, though.
Thematrian1 (11:23:45 PM): I know little about that license. I take it it doesn't require source release?
Umbrafer (11:24:27 PM): The license basically says "Copyright so-and-so, do anything you want with this code as long as you leave this copyright notice."
Thematrian1 (11:24:35 PM): ah
Umbrafer (11:35:33 PM): Anyway, I should head to sleep or something. Before I do, though:
Thematrian1 (11:35:39 PM): ?
Umbrafer (11:36:33 PM): Any thoughts on the contacts question (or my proposed axes)? I'm not sure if there's a good balance between easy-to-create and easy-to-play, but I'm personally inclined to give creation the higher cost as compared to play…
Thematrian1 (11:36:51 PM): absolutely, you only need to pay that once. Let me check the thread...
Thematrian1 (11:39:26 PM): GunnerJ has some interesting ideas
Umbrafer (11:39:44 PM): Indeed.
Thematrian1 (11:40:05 PM): I don't offhand see a way to hammer his approach into the normal priority system, other than just buying his 'contact points' with cash
Umbrafer (11:40:06 PM): Though the Charisma-linking struck me as a bad idea
Thematrian1 (11:40:09 PM): yeah
Umbrafer (11:40:40 PM): Since current contacts are purchased with Resources, I have no problem with SR3R contacts being purchased the same way
Thematrian1 (11:41:07 PM): I know. It's not wrong. I just hate it.
Umbrafer (11:41:23 PM): Though I still think two axes are too few.
Thematrian1 (11:41:49 PM): each axis is going to come up in play
Umbrafer (11:41:58 PM): Hm?
Thematrian1 (11:42:38 PM): you have to interact with each axis whenever you use the contacts in game
Umbrafer (11:43:43 PM): Right, but there's still a lot of vagueness there unless you restrict everyone to being a single-interest specialist
Umbrafer (11:44:14 PM): (For example)
Thematrian1 (11:44:59 PM): Not necessarily. It depends on what 'power' means.
Umbrafer (11:45:34 PM): Hm?
Thematrian1 (11:46:04 PM): If the power of the contact is one of your axes, then having multiple specialties translates to an increase in that power
Umbrafer (11:47:59 PM): Well, again working with the two axes of Power and Friendliness (or whatever), something just feels wrong to me about a mediocre jack of absolutely every trade ever devised having the same Power listing as FastJack
Thematrian1 (11:48:25 PM): if power in a given speciality is linear to buy, sure
Thematrian1 (11:48:39 PM): if it's quadratic, like skills cost in karma, things become much more ok
Umbrafer (11:49:13 PM): So then you'd have different Powers in different specialties?
Thematrian1 (11:49:34 PM): right
Thematrian1 (11:49:47 PM): I'd view them as different components of the same Power, but right
Umbrafer (11:50:04 PM): Hm.
Umbrafer (11:52:19 PM): You know, I just had a neat idea for calculating the cost of a four-axis contact based on the area of the resulting figure, but it's totally impractical for a table-top game. Why do the neat ideas always have to be like that?
Umbrafer (11:52:22 PM): In any event.
Thematrian1 (11:52:35 PM): surface area?
Thematrian1 (11:52:38 PM): or volume?
Thematrian1 (11:52:53 PM): but yeah, that would be the perfect way, given discrete nonzero values for each axis
Umbrafer (11:53:17 PM): Actually, since I'm assuming none of these attributes will ever hit negative (or 0), that we could use +y, -y, +x, and -x for each of the for axes
Umbrafer (11:53:19 PM): *four
Thematrian1 (11:53:28 PM): oh, I see
Thematrian1 (11:53:53 PM): but yeah, you basically need to figure the area of two arbitrary triangles
Umbrafer (11:54:36 PM): *Bites self to keep the "we can do it in software" demons away* I think I know how Jon Szeto felt.
Thematrian1 (11:54:44 PM): ?
Umbrafer (11:56:13 PM): Well, the area method would work just great for SotSW--after all, we could just write a small program to take care of the math for us. This, of course, is a non-starter for something that still needs to be available to other people
Thematrian1 (11:56:21 PM): indeed
Umbrafer (11:56:23 PM): People who, in the theoretical, may not even own computers.
Umbrafer (11:56:45 PM): Admittedly not many of those are likely to ever use a ruleset distributed pretty much only online
Thematrian1 (11:56:46 PM): or calculators. It's the sort of thing that would be awesome to do for a video game, albeit a very strange one
Thematrian1 (11:56:51 PM): they could print it
Thematrian1 (11:56:52 PM): I guess
Umbrafer (11:56:55 PM): Indeed.
Umbrafer (11:57:06 PM): Well
Umbrafer (11:57:27 PM): While I don't think anything should require people to use a calculator or a lot of paper
Umbrafer (11:57:44 PM): I've got no objection to things that are meaningfully easier to do with a calculator, as long as they don't show up a lot
Umbrafer (11:58:38 PM): There's got to be a way to make this work. Hm.
Umbrafer (12:04:32 AM): Well, if we were to do it via the area method, using minimum values of 1 for everything and maximum values of 5 (do you think that's fine-grained enough), that'd give us a range of values between 2 and 50… there's probably no good
Thematrian1 (12:04:43 AM): I'd make it 1 and 6
Umbrafer (12:04:47 AM): way to approximate that, though
Thematrian1 (12:04:49 AM): just for consistency
Umbrafer (12:04:50 AM): 1 and 6?
Umbrafer (12:04:53 AM): Ah, yes
Umbrafer (12:04:55 AM): Good call.
Umbrafer (12:05:11 AM): So 2 and 72
Thematrian1 (12:05:48 AM): with some values in between that aren't integers
Thematrian1 (12:05:50 AM): or even rationals
Umbrafer (12:05:54 AM): Indeed.
Thematrian1 (12:06:04 AM): they are reals
Thematrian1 (12:06:09 AM): give 'em that
Umbrafer (12:07:10 AM): Ah well. It's probably a doomed idea, but I'm going to spend some time later today trying to see if I can approximate this in a relatively simple manner
Umbrafer (12:07:26 AM): In the meantime, any more suggestions regarding the two-axis bit?
Thematrian1 (12:07:32 AM): no, not as such
Thematrian1 (12:08:00 AM): sleep well
Umbrafer (12:09:45 AM): And you as well, when you do. Tuesday?
Thematrian1 (12:09:58 AM): naturally
Umbrafer (12:10:01 AM): (I'm actually going to be running some decking playtesting first, as it turns out, but sleep is soon)
Thematrian1 (12:10:13 AM): (Cool. Anything I can help with?)
Umbrafer (12:11:03 AM): (Actually, if you're so inclined you could sit in on it--even, if desired, participate either by offering suggestions or running a sample character. We're not going to be at this all that long, as I do still need that whole "sleep")
Umbrafer (12:11:05 AM): (thing)
Thematrian1 (12:11:27 AM): (I'd be glad to; I'm not to sleep for a bit yet)
Umbrafer (12:11:50 AM): I'll form a new chat and post this in /runs
Chat room exited at 7/15/2005 12:12:07 AM.