New chat room entered at 2/26/2007 7:50:09 PM.
You are now in chat room “sotsw022607.”
Thematrian1 (7:50:18 PM): hi, guys
MilesMk1 (7:50:37 PM): Hey.
circlmastr (7:50:43 PM): How did you know I was a guy?!? Are you an undercover FBI agent!?!?!!
Dragcrell (7:50:44 PM): *leans on the spear with Matt's name engraved on its shaft* So what happend last week. and Hey
MilesMk1 (7:50:59 PM): Spear?
MilesMk1 (7:51:26 PM): Well, I'm not sure if you'll be any happier if I say that I'm still at work.
Thematrian1 (7:51:32 PM): I should warn you: I've had four hours sleep in the last 48, so I'm liable to screw up on rules questions. If you spot anything like that, please point it out; it's probably a mistake...uh.
MilesMk1 (7:51:54 PM): Yeah.
Thematrian1 (7:52:01 PM): ...are you here to tell us that you can't play, or will be further delayed, or what?
MilesMk1 (7:52:15 PM): Oh, right, clarification.
MilesMk1 (7:52:20 PM): It
MilesMk1 (7:52:57 PM): It's one of those things where I need to be around to watch stuff, which means I have lots of free time, but it's in 10-minute slices every 10-15 minutes. Not very conducive to playing. :(
MilesMk1 (7:53:12 PM): But I figured I'd pop online and at least let you guys know.
Dragcrell (7:54:03 PM): -_- well this sucks I like my SR games they let me vent off the insanety
Thematrian1 (7:54:16 PM): okay then. That's that, thank you all for your time.
MilesMk1 (7:54:31 PM): ...sorry.
Thematrian1 (7:54:50 PM): it's not your fault, except in a really cosmic sense
MilesMk1 (7:55:03 PM): Well... Can't you guys still play without me?
circlmastr (7:55:05 PM): Can I take this opportunity to plug Freelancer as a good game for all to try?
MilesMk1 (7:55:18 PM): The Privateer-ish one?
circlmastr (7:55:23 PM): The very same.
MilesMk1 (7:55:37 PM): Yeah, it's not bad.
Thematrian1 (7:55:44 PM): never played it
MilesMk1 (7:55:50 PM): Dark Star One is similar, better in some respects...
Dragcrell (7:55:54 PM): I played privateer I got board with it in less then 4 days
MilesMk1 (7:56:10 PM): Not enough to do in either one, in my experience.
Dragcrell (7:56:12 PM): the secont one lasted but 2 days
MilesMk1 (7:56:28 PM): And I thought they really screwed up the enemy scaling in Freelancer.
circlmastr (7:56:34 PM): How so?
MilesMk1 (7:57:00 PM): It's always relative to you, so no matter how hard you work, the enemies never really get any easier.
Thematrian1 (7:57:35 PM): Oblivion does that too
MilesMk1 (7:57:57 PM): On top of it all, they based it IIRC off your credit total. I found an alien weapon in some debris field once that was worth 1.5 million or something, and the enemies got so tough I couldn't make it back to a planet or station alive
MilesMk1 (7:58:25 PM): (Since my ship didn't have the power to use the gun effectively, it wasn't much help.)
Thematrian1 (7:58:33 PM): (Right)
circlmastr (7:59:15 PM): I've not had much trouble with the random encounters. The forced story encounters have been giving me a bit more grief.
MilesMk1 (7:59:21 PM): Mmm.
MilesMk1 (7:59:28 PM): Well, perhaps they patched it, since?
circlmastr (7:59:50 PM): Nope. I've still got 1.0, and the only patches I know of are unofficial.
MilesMk1 (8:00:06 PM): Anyway... I have to run... But it's not like I'm indispensible, right? This is a chance for other people to get shot at. :)
circlmastr (8:00:14 PM): Have you tries the multiplayer pseudo-MMO servers?
Thematrian1 (8:00:14 PM): well
MilesMk1 (8:00:51 PM): (I mean, it's not like I'd really like nothing better than you guys playing without me, but I feel bad about causing the game to be called.)
MilesMk1 (8:01:42 PM): Nope, haven't tried them, and now things are beeping at me, so I'm really going this time. Sorry, guys.
Thematrian1 (8:01:48 PM): (I know, but it's not your fault and...er...I want everybody around for the next sequence. I want four brains involved, and I don't ...bye)
Dragcrell (8:01:48 PM): well I'm game for a game but thats Them's call
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Dragcrell (8:04:36 PM): soooo.....
Thematrian1 (8:04:58 PM): No game. I want four brains, and I don't want to explain that Blake died because of a choice someone else made.
circlmastr (8:05:33 PM): (You can always kill Todd instead and I can make yet another temp character, heh)
Umbrafer (8:05:38 PM): "So who wants to clear the elevator shaft? Blake, was that you volunteering?"
Dragcrell (8:06:26 PM): *nods* understud and Todds not that bad not a liveing tank like Blake but he's not that bad
Thematrian1 (8:06:52 PM): Yeah, ask Askia for her thoughts on that.
Dragcrell (8:07:54 PM): atualy I think I still hold the top for near death shoots with S.C. *cough*
Umbrafer (8:08:32 PM): 'Strue. And you're the only one here with a character who has actually died in this campaign.
Umbrafer (8:08:38 PM): Well.
Umbrafer (8:08:42 PM): Unless you count Spider :(
Thematrian1 (8:09:18 PM): 2 character deaths total. Over 3 years, that's not bad
circlmastr (8:09:19 PM): We playing Thursday?
Dragcrell (8:09:43 PM): *nods* ay but S.C. nearly made that cout be 2 had I rolled wrong on one of the what 4-5 times she's hit Deadly damage?
Umbrafer (8:11:04 PM): Who was the other death, or were you counting Spider?
Umbrafer (8:11:13 PM): As for Thursday, it's uncertain. I'll email people.
circlmastr (8:11:47 PM): D'oh.
Umbrafer (8:11:54 PM): (There's a possibility that I may be visiting people I haven't seen in about a year and two months. It's only a possibility, but if it happens it will trump the game, sorry)
Thematrian1 (8:12:56 PM): Adam's first character, the shaman
Thematrian1 (8:13:01 PM): "I liked him, but he's evidence now"
Thematrian1 (8:13:03 PM): remember?
Dragcrell (8:13:52 PM): tho she is haveing a better track with explosions only been in one exsplosion so far
Umbrafer (8:13:52 PM): Oh!
Umbrafer (8:13:53 PM): Right.
Umbrafer (8:13:59 PM): Man.
Umbrafer (8:14:14 PM): I can't believe I forgot that.
Umbrafer (8:14:36 PM): Ah well. We couldn't even make money when Trickster died :(
Thematrian1 (8:14:46 PM): my heart bleeds
Umbrafer (8:14:58 PM): I wonder what usefulness Shapeshifter organs have…
Thematrian1 (8:15:18 PM): well, they're animal-shaped
Thematrian1 (8:15:27 PM): they're probably telesma, or something
Dragcrell (8:15:39 PM): ^_- ummmmm I would supecet non
Umbrafer (8:15:49 PM): Yeah. There's the telesma route, or we could try to find someone with a pet fox that needs a kidney or something.
circlmastr (8:16:02 PM): One shapeshifter can provide eye of newt AND toe of frog, for all your ritual needs!
Umbrafer (8:16:34 PM): I really wish there was an incentive within the rules to ingest magically-active individuals.
Dragcrell (8:16:49 PM): O_o
Umbrafer (8:16:51 PM): I think that would add a needed additional element of danger to being Awakened.
Dragcrell (8:16:53 PM): I don't
Thematrian1 (8:16:58 PM): I have to second that O_o
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Dragcrell (8:17:47 PM): hell S.C. has enufe to worry about and not all of it she knows of...........acualy ALOT of it she don't know of.....
Umbrafer (8:18:19 PM): Maybe as an ordeal. Require that the initiating individual ingest some quantity of flesh from some net Magic rating worth of Awakened.
Dragcrell (8:19:05 PM): ^_- only would work if they was of the twisted path
Umbrafer (8:19:10 PM): Basically, it'd be nice if magic-users (and even possibly non-magic-users, though that might be a bit extreme) had a strong and known incentive to become cannibals.
Thematrian1 (8:19:31 PM): Yeah, that sounds like the sort of thing you'd gain Potency for doing, not Magic
Umbrafer (8:20:21 PM): Well, it'd also be nice to merge those. The existence of a separate power rating for ZOMGEVIL bad guys irks me.
Dragcrell (8:20:23 PM): haveing said that tho S.C. IS a predory in some sence and the gang members WAS dead and meat
Umbrafer (8:27:31 PM): But yeah, this is all part of the grand master plan to reduce the warm-fuzziness of magic.
Umbrafer (8:27:48 PM): (Which, if anyone has ideas for, I'd love to hear)
Dragcrell (8:28:21 PM): awwwww you mean no more of Shadow Cat's tyeps then? as shes warm and fuzzy
Umbrafer (8:28:40 PM): Well.
Umbrafer (8:28:54 PM): Ok. I'm not talking about quite that /literal/ a warm-and-fuzzy.
Dragcrell (8:29:03 PM): :-D
Umbrafer (8:30:02 PM): But magic doesn't destroy your soul, which needs to be fixed.
Dragcrell (8:31:08 PM): well could make Blood magic a legil mage type as it does THAT one reather nicely that or the blood spirtet you try to summon well eat ya
Umbrafer (8:32:21 PM): Well, yeah, but that just makes one particular type of magic unpleasant. Anyone who wants to be, say, a Shaman, can still boogey with nature without having to make the tradeoff that, say, comes with cyberware.
Umbrafer (8:32:57 PM): I mean, I'm all for making blood magic PC-usable. I'd have to look at the math, but I'm not sure it'd be that much worse than, say, Centering.
Dragcrell (8:33:43 PM): well Shamans I can't see how that would destroy your soul tho as they are the one mage type that is in tune to nature
Umbrafer (8:36:13 PM): Well, for shamans there can be a tension between their totemic calling, their surroundings, and their personal preferences. That's another thing I'd like, to break down the idea that shamans necessarily have totems that reflect in
Dragcrell (8:36:23 PM): The other one mmmm Hemirec(sp) I could see posabley destroy your soul tho
Umbrafer (8:36:42 PM): some way their personality. The idea of someone getting a totem that demands them to act highly differently from their natural behaviour is very interesting to me.
Dragcrell (8:39:00 PM): *nods* but thats asuming the "totem's" would pick a follower that was highly different from there veiw or thinking but I supose it could happen tho I dont see that as a soul destryoing event a Mentaly destrutive...
Dragcrell (8:39:09 PM): HELL YA!! ^_^b
Thematrian1 (8:39:12 PM): well, a totem is an ideal. It can always demand more, even from a compatible follower
Umbrafer (8:39:47 PM): There's that as well.
Umbrafer (8:40:22 PM): I'm imagining, say, a relatively indifferent-to-people, self-serving type waking up one morning and realizing that he is a shaman of Dog. That sort of thing.
Thematrian1 (8:40:51 PM): wait, do people go to sleep mundanes and wake up Awakened?
Umbrafer (8:41:04 PM): Not as such.
Umbrafer (8:41:17 PM): Sometimes people go to sleep not knowing they're Awakened and wake up knowing they're Awakened, though.
Thematrian1 (8:41:31 PM): ...and no one else can tell they're awakened before then either?
Dragcrell (8:41:55 PM): mmmmmm think that would be hitting the guys way of thinking and his long term mental staite.........have it to where the guy becomes twisted and kills the ppl around him THAT would be soul destrying
Umbrafer (8:42:53 PM): The flavourtext is vague on that.
Umbrafer (8:43:40 PM): There's no rule given for it being more difficult to detect someone's Awakenedness while they're still unaware of it themselves, but there are canon characters (Twist, especially) who have been around mages for sustained periods of
Umbrafer (8:43:45 PM): time before they've realized they're Awakened.
Thematrian1 (8:44:36 PM): hmph. I know which variant makes it easier to write backstories...
Dragcrell (8:45:13 PM): but then SR's magic is a tricky one to tackle in that front I think thats why they made it as they did. For what you want I think you would have to find a way to murge the potancey stuff on the twisted way and the normal
Dragcrell (8:45:21 PM): magical path ways
Umbrafer (8:45:42 PM): Yeah, basically.
Dragcrell (8:46:23 PM): but that could be a slipery slope in and of its self
Umbrafer (8:46:40 PM): I'd also like to see cyber warp people a little more, or rather have more clear instructions to people as to how it warps (I don't think we need cyberpsychosis, but as I've said elsewhere there's something that separates you from th
Umbrafer (8:47:08 PM): the rest of the human race if you can determine how fast a vehicle is travelling by watching how far it moves in .05 seconds.
Umbrafer (8:47:51 PM): Especially once you've had your math SPU for a few years and start to forget that other people don't have it,.
Dragcrell (8:48:33 PM): *chucles* well that would be a suporty complexe or a inablity to conet with others on a emotanal lvl kinda
Dragcrell (8:48:47 PM): hard to do on a rules front I think
Umbrafer (8:49:12 PM): Yeah. Basically, 'ware needs descriptions like the Totems have as to how this can warp the perceptions of users.
Umbrafer (8:49:33 PM): Smartlink-users forget that most people can't pick off tin cans at extreme Pistol range, so on and soforth.
Umbrafer (8:49:52 PM): People with vismag-3 forget that others can't read roadsigns at 900 meters.
Thematrian1 (8:50:03 PM): I don't know if I buy that.
Dragcrell (8:50:07 PM): ya but still only the ppl that care about breathing life in to there cheraters would even care about it
Umbrafer (8:50:10 PM): Well, vismag maybe not
Umbrafer (8:50:14 PM): Since vismag requires conscious effort
Umbrafer (8:50:34 PM): And I guess a smartlink is also an optional part of a gun.
Umbrafer (8:50:54 PM): But stuff like an encephalon, or a math SPU, stuff that you wouldn't turn off
Thematrian1 (8:51:29 PM): hm, well, hm. I started to write "The whole concept. Anyone here could read off a list of things that he does better than almost anyone else he meets. Do you ever forget that normal people can't?"
Dragcrell (8:52:38 PM): and the game dose have it set so that ppl with visal cyber are treated diffrent by the ppl they meet..
Umbrafer (8:52:56 PM): Actually, I came up with this idea after being confronted with a group of people who can't do basic integration in their heads and being genuinely surprised.
Thematrian1 (8:53:11 PM): Yeah, I found myself confronted with a similar scenario as I typed
Thematrian1 (8:53:33 PM): and yeah, they're treated differently
Thematrian1 (8:53:38 PM): but how does it affect their minds?
Dragcrell (8:54:41 PM): who dose it effect yours when ppl do the same to you?
Dragcrell (8:54:47 PM): gah how
Umbrafer (8:55:12 PM): *Ponders*
Thematrian1 (8:57:25 PM): I'm not sure I understand the question.
Dragcrell (8:57:50 PM): how dose it effect your mind when ppl treat you diffrently from others?
Umbrafer (8:59:55 PM): Well, I guess that's the question. I still feel a little weird when I realize that some things I take for granted about, say, level of mathematical training I can't take for granted. I realize it before anything happens these days,
Umbrafer (9:00:19 PM): but it's still a little weird. That said, I don't think it's personality-changing, and I think if I weren't in an academic setting for some period of time, I might get used to it.
Umbrafer (9:00:41 PM): The question is, is taking this to the level of a math SPU a big enough change to destroy that realization ability.
Dragcrell (9:01:03 PM): *nods* but that would varey from one person to another
Umbrafer (9:01:04 PM): And if the answer's no, the idea might be flawed for at least the math SPU (and comparable devices).
Thematrian1 (9:01:08 PM): I'd think it would be simpler. You have to explicitly call on your chip to make it work its magic, right?
Thematrian1 (9:01:19 PM): I mean, it's not hard to do
Umbrafer (9:01:27 PM): Let me double-check the description.
Dragcrell (9:03:59 PM): well the Math SPU has sevreal uses one of them is it can be use as a crongrafical or a clock so I think it woudl be hard to not forget you have it the epchilone tho you could easly forget you have as it takes over some
Dragcrell (9:04:17 PM): "back ground" actions your brain dose
Umbrafer (9:04:24 PM): FWIW, that isn't how I envisioned the system—I pictured it on the level of the transducer, being wired directly into those areas of the brain usually used, primarily, for computation-related tasks. That said, its usefulness as a tim
Umbrafer (9:04:37 PM): timer may indicate that I'm simply visualizing it incorrectly.
Umbrafer (9:04:55 PM): Transducer's not the 'ware I was thinking of.
Umbrafer (9:05:09 PM): *Digs for M&M*
Dragcrell (9:05:18 PM): *nods* ya it can be as that was one of the uses it had other then crunching numbers ;3
Umbrafer (9:06:31 PM): Maybe it was. Until I can figure out a better analogy, consider that point rebutted.
Thematrian1 (9:07:07 PM): well, ok, same point but for the encephalon
Umbrafer (9:07:31 PM): Anyway, I didn't picture it as being explicitly invoked. The encephalon goes beyond that—it presumably isn't explicitly invoked by its very function.
Dragcrell (9:07:38 PM): *nods* I think thats the one Jon is thinking of
Dragcrell (9:08:23 PM): but as I said I think it would varie from person to person look at it how with what tech there is and how some ppl act about it
Dragcrell (9:09:24 PM): some ppl see some stuff as ok but nothing spesale or to be braged about others tho see it as a staits simble to have it and the best one out here and treat ppl that done diffrently becuse of it
Thematrian1 (9:09:42 PM): I think the event, the choice to get the cyberware, the surgery, would create a barrier that would make it impossible to forget how different you are
Umbrafer (9:10:13 PM): Actually, that's a point that I hadn't considered but that is more strongly supported.
Umbrafer (9:10:23 PM): That's also part of why I want to strengthen cyberlimbs.
Umbrafer (9:10:58 PM): There's shadowtalk that it takes a certain type of person to cut off two perfectly good arms and replace them with metal. Right now, because of the total lack of mechanical benefits, it takes a madman.
Thematrian1 (9:11:11 PM): I want that too, but in my case it's because their worthlessness offends my sense of taste
Umbrafer (9:11:23 PM): That's not quite true. As Doc Funk and others have demonstrated, they're great as storage compartments.
Umbrafer (9:11:32 PM): Mostly the cyberforearm or cyberpegleg.
Umbrafer (9:11:34 PM): But yeah.
Umbrafer (9:11:43 PM): Their near-worthlessness is offensive on many levels.
Thematrian1 (9:11:53 PM): feh. Gem had a cyberforearm for a while; getting a straight Shock Hand was cheaper and more essence efficient
Dragcrell (9:11:54 PM): ya the cyberlinbs rules are funky as hell why the HELL would you get a replacemetn thats WEAKER then your flesh and blood arm to start out with?
Umbrafer (9:12:15 PM): IIRC most of the stuff they put in there was stuff like RCDs and other similar gear.
Umbrafer (9:13:11 PM): Though I'd like to also increase the advantage to having a big lump of chrome sticking out of your shoulder.
Thematrian1 (9:13:16 PM): hm. But an RCD is already portable, and there's not a lot of point in smuggling one...
Dragcrell (9:13:54 PM): :P Hell I rember some of the stuff I but in my lost sheat for progecte "D" had a GPS, memory, radio, Pocket secary, and some other stuff in a cyber forarm
Umbrafer (9:14:03 PM): IIRC it was a CRCD. There was some other stuff. I don't know. Doc thought it was worthwhile, and I've only seen him make a few questionable choices that I've identified as such.
Umbrafer (9:14:30 PM): (Yes, a CRCD in a cyberforearm.)
Thematrian1 (9:14:34 PM): yeah, ok, Doc is one whose builds I should respect sight unseen
Thematrian1 (9:14:51 PM): I haven't really hung out at DS lately
Umbrafer (9:15:40 PM): Sometime when you've had more sleep you should pop into the SR3R threads. There've been some ideas flying around, but none have struck me strongly enough to spur action.
Dragcrell (9:15:45 PM): the only thaing I hate about the cyberlimbs tho is the fact that if your cher has 6 str and loses a arm or both arms he now has a arm/arms that are now str 4 and woudl have to pay points to up the str to 6
Dragcrell (9:16:47 PM): you think they would match the str to match ^_- or it would trow off the guy when he tryed to do soemthing with that arm
Umbrafer (9:16:49 PM): The way I see it, the rules don't work until Skwaaark is viable. Whether or not he should require cybermancy or high-grade 'ware is another question.
Thematrian1 (9:16:58 PM): Skwaaaark?
Umbrafer (9:17:19 PM): He was from the card game, possibly from elsewhere in canon. Full-body cyborg troll.
Thematrian1 (9:17:35 PM): all betaware, I guess. ::spits::
Dragcrell (9:17:47 PM): lol
Umbrafer (9:18:12 PM): Under the current rules, that's about the same as having your muscles all surgically extracted, but it costs more.
Dragcrell (9:18:50 PM): ya thats just messed up I think
Umbrafer (9:19:10 PM): Whether or not we want to permit RsINAB and DsINAB is another question, but not an urgent one.
Thematrian1 (9:19:25 PM): RsINAB?
Thematrian1 (9:19:33 PM): DINAB = Decker IN A Box, I thought...
Umbrafer (9:19:36 PM): Riggers in a box.
Thematrian1 (9:19:40 PM): ah
Umbrafer (9:19:50 PM): Yeah. This DINAB, though, would be a meat brain.
Dragcrell (9:20:58 PM): well rules wise the rigger in a box is legile wrong but legile tho they guy woudl go NUTS after a time if he was not riging something for a long enfue time
Umbrafer (9:21:29 PM): Well, there's the matrix. And BTLs.
Umbrafer (9:21:51 PM): Oh yeah, we need drug rules that don't come out of a DARE brochure.
Dragcrell (9:23:51 PM): *chucels* not touching that one as I still get laughing fits over the idea of doseing ppl with Hyper then hittign em with a superflash, cocushion gernaide, and/or a hullegenica drug after it takes effect
Umbrafer (9:31:58 PM): So here's the qeustion, before I leave you all for the night: does anyone have any ideas, fully-formed, partly-formed, or fragmentary, as to how to strengthen cyberlimbs?
Umbrafer (9:32:04 PM): *question
Thematrian1 (9:32:31 PM): half essence cost, divide nuyen cost by four, base attributes equal those of the bearer
Dragcrell (9:32:50 PM): mmmm that works
Thematrian1 (9:32:58 PM): it's been in my 'propose eventually' file for, literally, years, but it's never come up
Thematrian1 (9:33:29 PM): I should mention, I'd like to see people lose some limbs
Umbrafer (9:33:33 PM): That sounds not-bad for a start. I'll have to investigate what that does to all the upgrades, but I like the sound of it.
Thematrian1 (9:33:42 PM): incidentally
Umbrafer (9:33:45 PM): More so than occurs through application of the permanent damage rules?
Thematrian1 (9:34:01 PM): what's the term for a guy with a piece of cyber? Not "wielder" or "wearer"
Thematrian1 (9:34:03 PM): I meant
Umbrafer (9:34:15 PM): Cybered individual, usually.
Thematrian1 (9:34:17 PM): I'd like to see more people choose to replace their warm friendly meat limbs with unfeeling metal
Umbrafer (9:34:23 PM): Oh
Umbrafer (9:34:24 PM): Yes.
Umbrafer (9:34:27 PM): I totally agree.
Umbrafer (9:34:56 PM): Alex's cybereye was originally a cyberlimb before I realized the math would never work.
Dragcrell (9:35:01 PM): well dont look at S.C. ;3 some one else would have to be your ginie pig cyberwere is to unweldy for my tastes
Umbrafer (9:36:44 PM): Well, I guess that wouldn't have been a voluntary choice on her part. Though I guess replacing it with cyber instead of vat-grown tissue would be.
Dragcrell (9:37:37 PM): well you two have fun ;3 hopefully we can have some fun next week
Dragcrell has left the chat room.

Umbrafer (9:37:46 PM): So, without any rounding whatsoever, the new cyberlimbs would be…
Umbrafer (9:38:57 PM): Full obvious arm: .5 E, ¥18,750
Umbrafer (9:39:02 PM): Let's see.
Umbrafer (9:39:39 PM): As compared to a ¥25,000 pricetag for a cloned replacement.
Thematrian1 (9:39:49 PM): so it's cheaper than cloning, good.
Umbrafer (9:40:01 PM): That's a decent difference, and at least it's in /the right friggin' direction/.
Umbrafer (9:40:23 PM): We might want to push it down to ¥15k, but the above value isn't unreasonable. Cyberleg is identical.
Umbrafer (9:40:25 PM): Let me see…
Thematrian1 (9:40:28 PM): Hm. How much if you push the Strength and Quickness enhancements?
Umbrafer (9:40:50 PM): I'll check that in a second, looking for the synthetic limbs
Thematrian1 (9:40:52 PM): ah
Umbrafer (9:41:07 PM): A synthetic limb comes out to ¥25,000, same price as a cloned replacement.
Umbrafer (9:41:38 PM): That needs to be brought down. Also, that is insane (that dividing it by four equals cloned-replacement value)
Thematrian1 (9:41:38 PM): that might have been where I got the math, even
Thematrian1 (9:41:49 PM): how about 5? That gives us 15k and 20k
Thematrian1 (9:42:08 PM): nice round numbers...
Umbrafer (9:42:12 PM): I think that's a good number. It could be pushed more aggressively, but that probably drops the cyberhands and cyberfeet too much.
Thematrian1 (9:42:27 PM): ooh, good call. How much for a cyberhand with a shock hand installed?
Thematrian1 (9:42:34 PM): (I'd do it myself, but I don't trust my own math right now)
Umbrafer (9:43:29 PM): An ovbvious cyberhand becomes .175 Essence, ¥4k. I don't remember what the installation costs are like for, say, putting a shock hand in.
Umbrafer (9:43:43 PM): A synthetic, ¥5k.
Thematrian1 (9:43:49 PM): you pay the nuyen for the shock hand, but not the essence
Thematrian1 (9:43:59 PM): installation is free, I think
Umbrafer (9:44:26 PM): Shock hand adds ¥1,300 to each.
Umbrafer (9:44:42 PM): It'd be nice to add some installation costs that don't destroy cyberware
Umbrafer (9:45:12 PM): So that people can do things like get 'ware through unorthodox channels and have it installed for something other than free, and also something other than a made-up numer.
Thematrian1 (9:45:13 PM): hm. 5k for a savings of...uh, .125 essence?
Thematrian1 (9:45:21 PM): ah
Thematrian1 (9:45:22 PM): indeed
Thematrian1 (9:45:22 PM): hm
Umbrafer (9:45:26 PM): *number.
Umbrafer (9:45:41 PM): Shock hand is .25 at Basic
Umbrafer (9:45:50 PM): Oh, right
Umbrafer (9:46:00 PM): The hand's cost. Yeah.
Umbrafer (9:46:19 PM): A synthetic has 1 ECU, too, so I don't think you'd get much more into it.
Umbrafer (9:46:23 PM): I don't remember the conversion rate.
Umbrafer (9:46:31 PM): Because, well, I've never needed to know it, for obvious reasons.
Thematrian1 (9:46:34 PM): there's a table in M&M, but I think a shock hand takes 1 ECU
Thematrian1 (9:46:48 PM): I took a long hard look at it for Gem, but it just wasn't efficient enoug
Umbrafer (9:47:41 PM): We may need to tweak ECU allocations, or costs, or something.
Thematrian1 (9:48:03 PM): ugh. All those numbers are made up anyway
Umbrafer (9:48:32 PM): Yeah. Some areas of the game have less connection to reality (or the rest of the game) than others, and ECU costs are, IIRC, definitely one.
Umbrafer (9:49:27 PM): Anyway, Strength enhancements:
Umbrafer (9:49:41 PM): Oh, right
Umbrafer (9:50:01 PM): We need to figure out how to do unbalanced strength in a way that doesn't totally suck, as well
Thematrian1 (9:50:09 PM): oh, if we're going to do this, we should probably eliminate ablative cyberlimb armor
Umbrafer (9:50:14 PM): ?
Umbrafer (9:50:41 PM): I mean, I totally support Koil Krasnov not being an all-around muscleman, but I totally don't support him just getting one extra point of Strength in nearly every situation.
Thematrian1 (9:50:47 PM): you can buy armor for your cyberbits. It can be ablative. Because of the screwed up way the ablative armor rules work, you can hit 12/12 without major problems
Umbrafer (9:50:53 PM): Hm.
Thematrian1 (9:51:06 PM): normally it's not a good plan, because you have to shell out for all the cyberparts
Umbrafer (9:51:12 PM): Well, if that's made horribly difficult/expensive enough, I'm not sure I'm against it.
Thematrian1 (9:51:18 PM): but now that you can get those on ganger wages...
Umbrafer (9:51:23 PM): Yeah.
Umbrafer (9:51:38 PM): Basically, all the cost that was previously sitting in the limbs themselves needs to be pushed to the ablative armor.
Umbrafer (9:51:44 PM): Or most of it.
Thematrian1 (9:52:27 PM): or just get rid of it. I mean, it's ablative armor. I think we have a covenant against it
Umbrafer (9:52:30 PM): I don't really have a problem with giving the 'Star a reason to pull out the Vindicator or the Panther, but I do have a problem with every gutterpunk having one if they get lucky and steal a few cars.
Umbrafer (9:52:42 PM): What was the problem with it again?
Thematrian1 (9:53:00 PM): It's twice as efficient as ordinary armor, and it only ablates if an attack penetrates it by a certain amount
Thematrian1 (9:53:07 PM): so if you buy 12 points for your vehicle...
Thematrian1 (9:53:20 PM): Or, hell, 18 points...
Umbrafer (9:53:24 PM): On a vehicle, the problem is larger, due to the ultra-Hardened status.
Umbrafer (9:54:14 PM): IMO, the fix is to reduce the ablation. As for vehicle armor, it's less of a problem because of how obvious, unconcealable, and totally military-grade it is.
Umbrafer (9:54:20 PM): Er
Umbrafer (9:54:25 PM): Reduce the threshold of ablation.
Umbrafer (9:55:32 PM): We also really need an epiphany regarding the whole "invincible-unless-rammed" class of possible vehicles.
Thematrian1 (9:55:46 PM): uh?
Umbrafer (9:55:49 PM): Though I guess that exists, if being more difficult to achieve, with meatlings.
Umbrafer (9:56:35 PM): Well, I guess there's still AV rounds, but any time you pump a vehicle's armor high enough, the attractiveness of ramming it as opposed to doing anything else increases dramatically.
Thematrian1 (9:56:50 PM): yeah
Thematrian1 (9:57:03 PM): well, vehicle armor is fundamentally balanced by concealability
Thematrian1 (9:57:12 PM): you said that above, and you're right
Thematrian1 (9:57:32 PM): the van, at Armor 5, can be threatened by a guy with a sniper rifle, even if he's not AV. So long as Alex can't dodge, that is.
Umbrafer (9:57:33 PM): There's a point that's never actually reached, except with one MBT taken out of the English version of R3, where even AV rounds won't penetrate but ramming will still do right by you.
Umbrafer (9:57:42 PM): Yeah.
Umbrafer (9:58:00 PM): There's also the second tradeoff with Handling
Thematrian1 (9:58:17 PM): pshaw. Lots of stuff reduces Handling, especially on-road
Thematrian1 (9:58:28 PM): How much more armor could you buy before your Handling reached 3?
Thematrian1 (9:58:55 PM): 12, I vaguely recall, though of course the armor's mass would do you in then...
Umbrafer (9:58:58 PM): Well, not counting Vehicle Empathy only 11 more points.
Umbrafer (9:59:13 PM): I can get another 6 out of being in physical contact with the vehicle.
Umbrafer (9:59:25 PM): Wait, no, 13
Thematrian1 (9:59:36 PM): 13 + 5 = 18
Thematrian1 (9:59:44 PM): It's either 12 or 18, right? Has to be
Thematrian1 (9:59:53 PM): it's Armor/6 rounded down, right?
Umbrafer (10:00:16 PM): It is. And yeah, it's at 12 that I hit 3 without VE, 18 with.
Umbrafer (10:00:27 PM): So I'm apparently not that much more awake than you.
Thematrian1 (10:00:40 PM): Nah, I had to do modular arithmetic today
Thematrian1 (10:00:58 PM): Did you see: there's a product key out for this generation of Blu-Ray/HDDVD players?
Umbrafer (10:01:23 PM): Yes, I did. IIRC, the attack is also fairly repeatable.
Thematrian1 (10:01:26 PM): eeeyep
Umbrafer (10:01:43 PM): But it makes me sad that there's no hoedown yet.
Thematrian1 (10:02:14 PM): was there going to be one?
Thematrian1 (10:02:24 PM): I'm saving mine for a crippling attack on our electronic voting system
Umbrafer (10:02:48 PM): Well, DeCSS got a hoedown.
Umbrafer (10:03:01 PM): I've got it on my computer somewhere.
Thematrian1 (10:03:07 PM): oh, that
Thematrian1 (10:03:14 PM): well, DeCSS is an actual algorithm
Thematrian1 (10:03:23 PM): this is just a known-plaintext attack
Umbrafer (10:03:47 PM): That's true. On the other hand, fortunately hoedowns can accept informal instructions.
Thematrian1 (10:03:59 PM): (Memo to smart crypto guys: there's no way to simultaneously protect data from the user and display it to the user at the same time. You have to pick, you dumb fucks!)
Umbrafer (10:04:22 PM): It all depends on your definition of "display"
Umbrafer (10:05:41 PM): For example, if you can protect the path to the display, and then remove the user's sense organs, and have that still count, you can protect it from the user. That's a creative interpretation of "display it to the user", though.
Thematrian1 (10:05:45 PM): uh
Thematrian1 (10:05:52 PM): I don't think that really qualifiers
Thematrian1 (10:05:54 PM): qualifies
Umbrafer (10:06:03 PM): No, probably not.
Thematrian1 (10:06:10 PM): the best you can do is protect the specs on the hardware to keep people from spoofing it, but that's just security by obscurity
Thematrian1 (10:07:22 PM): and that assumes that you're smart enough to not store sensitive information in an unencrypted form, ever, which apparently is pretty hard to do
Umbrafer (10:08:36 PM): Well, security by obscurity can be pretty effective in some contexts. Granted this isn't one.
Thematrian1 (10:09:18 PM): its effectiveness declines steeply as people begin to care what you're doing
Umbrafer (10:10:32 PM): Yes. That, and as you make it easier to attempt to break your security.
Umbrafer (10:11:03 PM): It works just great when people have to, say, go to a specific geographic location to take advantage of your revealed security hole.
Umbrafer (10:11:13 PM): It works less well if they need to go to their living room.
Thematrian1 (10:11:21 PM): especially if it features cameras and razor wire and humorless men with assault rifles, sure
Umbrafer (10:11:31 PM): Yeah. Even if it doesn't, though.
Umbrafer (10:11:56 PM): I mean, publishing that Joe Schmoe has an unlocked window.
Umbrafer (10:12:47 PM): Sure it increases his risk, but someone actually has to go to Joe Schmoe's house to verify that it's unlocked and exploit it. That's a pretty big barrier compared with "examine object in your physical possession in the privacy of yo
Umbrafer (10:12:49 PM): your home"
Umbrafer (10:12:53 PM): But yeah.
Thematrian1 (10:13:01 PM): yeah, ok, true
Thematrian1 (10:13:17 PM): but if you had a network, say the Something Awful forums, you could dispatch a few local goons to investigate
Thematrian1 (10:13:44 PM): hm. I guess there actually aren't too many groups with that combination of scope and recklessness
Umbrafer (10:13:55 PM): You know, this may be why my plans are always foiled. I never count on Something Awful.
Thematrian1 (10:14:28 PM): well, I wouldn't want to count on them
Umbrafer (10:15:29 PM): Better than having to count on yotsuba, I guess. Not that that's saying much.
Thematrian1 (10:15:37 PM): yotsuba?
Umbrafer (10:15:44 PM): Better known as 4chan.
Thematrian1 (10:15:54 PM): oh, them
Thematrian1 (10:16:00 PM): what's with those guys, anyway?
Umbrafer (10:16:08 PM): I'm not sure anyone knows.
Umbrafer (10:17:01 PM): I'm not even sure one can consider it a single community, though I've never spent enough time there to seriously investigate.
Umbrafer (10:22:03 PM): Anyway, where was I. Assuming cost/essence remains the same for strength enhancements, an Obvious Cyberlimb+3STR is ¥165,000…
Umbrafer (10:22:05 PM): Um.
Thematrian1 (10:22:22 PM): assume we divide by 5, we get, uh, 45k?
Umbrafer (10:22:38 PM): Yeah. It drops to ¥10k per instead of ¥50k.
Umbrafer (10:22:53 PM): Quickness is ¥30k and ¥6k respectively.
Thematrian1 (10:23:01 PM): yeah, I like that a lot better. Even if you're leading a limb in melee, it's still an improvement
Thematrian1 (10:23:05 PM): er
Thematrian1 (10:23:13 PM): it's still a balanced improvement
Umbrafer (10:23:27 PM): (Yeah, making them free is also an improvement :) )
Umbrafer (10:24:18 PM): Going above 3 makes it ¥15,000/point for Strength. For Quickness…
Thematrian1 (10:24:39 PM): no essence costs, right? Just ECU?
Umbrafer (10:24:43 PM): ¥9k.
Umbrafer (10:24:53 PM): There are Essence costs for the 4th and successive points.
Umbrafer (10:25:07 PM): No ECU costs until said points.
Thematrian1 (10:25:25 PM): ah
Umbrafer (10:25:27 PM): Essence is .3 and .4, or .15 and .2 with the adjustment.
Umbrafer (10:25:30 PM): ECU is 1 per.
Thematrian1 (10:25:46 PM): hm. What's the upper limit on strength improvements?
Umbrafer (10:26:37 PM): When you run out of Essence/ECU, unless I'm mistaken. An Obvious cyberarm makes the ECU-based limit +14, a cyberleg +24.
Umbrafer (10:26:47 PM): Er
Thematrian1 (10:26:49 PM): hm
Umbrafer (10:26:50 PM): 13 and 23.
Thematrian1 (10:27:06 PM): so for about 400k, you can have 2 arms at +13?
Umbrafer (10:27:34 PM): 400k and four points of Essence, yeah (I didn't check your cost math)
Thematrian1 (10:27:38 PM): hm. I think it's time for everybody's favorite game, "setting a hard cap"
Thematrian1 (10:27:51 PM): well, ok, the essence isn't trivial
Umbrafer (10:27:52 PM): Aw man. I mean, it's probably the best option, but still.
Thematrian1 (10:28:04 PM): but do it in one arm and chop people with your axe
Thematrian1 (10:28:21 PM): wait, 2-handed...chop with your katana, then
Umbrafer (10:28:25 PM): Quickness is a bit worse, it's only +3 to have an arm that has Reaction six points higher than your body.
Umbrafer (10:28:29 PM): Well, two arms.
Thematrian1 (10:28:30 PM): and lose half your power if you wield it 2-handed...
Umbrafer (10:28:47 PM): Cyberspurs.
Umbrafer (10:29:03 PM): What with their wacky 1.5x STR multiplier for dual-wielding.
Thematrian1 (10:29:13 PM): but then you need two arms again
Thematrian1 (10:29:22 PM): hey, let's fix dual wielding
Thematrian1 (10:29:27 PM): while we're fixing stuff
Umbrafer (10:29:28 PM): I totally agree.
Umbrafer (10:29:46 PM): I mean, most of dual-wielding is just sorta broken.
Thematrian1 (10:29:50 PM): actually, I have a perfectly workable fix in mind: Ban ambidexterity
Thematrian1 (10:29:54 PM): problem solved
Umbrafer (10:30:13 PM): That would work. It would also make some people unhappy, though whether or not we care is a valid question.
Thematrian1 (10:30:48 PM): the starting-character version of Askia throws 15 dice before Pool with her batons
Thematrian1 (10:30:50 PM): so, no
Thematrian1 (10:30:53 PM): can't say I do
Umbrafer (10:31:01 PM): Arguably 18.
Thematrian1 (10:31:17 PM): nah, I didn't buy Improved Skill up all the way at chargen
Umbrafer (10:31:21 PM): Oh
Umbrafer (10:31:23 PM): Fair enow
Thematrian1 (10:31:33 PM): actually, it might be 14
Thematrian1 (10:31:50 PM): it's cheaper to specialize in stun baton anyway
Umbrafer (10:32:27 PM): Oh, yeah, we also need to fix the fact that a person who gets shot in the upper arm and then punched in the face is worse off than someone shot twice or punched twice.
Umbrafer (10:32:37 PM): Well, I think we need to fix it at least
Thematrian1 (10:32:41 PM): do we?
Umbrafer (10:33:00 PM): It bothers me pretty badly that LP+LS > MP or MS.
Thematrian1 (10:33:01 PM): I mean, you could track damage, and add them for use on a single track, but...
Thematrian1 (10:33:18 PM): ? LP + LS = MP or MS
Umbrafer (10:33:25 PM): Oh, right
Thematrian1 (10:33:31 PM): I mean, I take your point
Umbrafer (10:33:33 PM): Sorry, 2LP or 2LS.
Thematrian1 (10:33:42 PM): yeah
Umbrafer (10:33:48 PM): The two boxes matter more or less based on whether or not they're in the same track.
Umbrafer (10:34:37 PM): But yeah, my idea was to use the combined track for the modifier, then continue the progression: +4 TN at 10 boxes, +5 at 15, +6 at 21 (though at that point you're only still conscious if you're using the consciousness-after-ten-box
Umbrafer (10:34:40 PM): (boxes rules)
Thematrian1 (10:35:03 PM): or, if you split Drain into a third track...
Umbrafer (10:35:27 PM): Or if you handle the stacking of, say, vehicle damage and personal damage the same way
Thematrian1 (10:35:35 PM): right
Thematrian1 (10:35:38 PM): ugh, I have to sleep
Thematrian1 (10:35:43 PM): save the log
Umbrafer (10:35:45 PM): I mean, it bugs me less that an M-wounded Strato and an M-wounded person… yeah, that's true.
Umbrafer (10:36:09 PM): The log is saved, like all. We'll resume this when you're rested, possibly Thursday. Sleep well, and check Dumpshock when you have time :)
Thematrian1 has left the chat room.

Chat room exited at 2/26/2007 10:36:36 PM.